Me to! This is the kind of intelligent discussion that should be available for all to read. It would be ironic if this gets moved but a thread offering Robbo for sale is allowed to remain in the main forum.michiguel wrote:I agree with Don.Don wrote:I have an objection because this particular thread is of a technical nature more than political. I view that other forum as non-technical and political and it probably would not attract the more serious engineers as much as this one would.sockmonkey wrote:Would anyone mind if this thread got relocated to the forum dedicated to Engine Origins, since that's ultimately what it's about? Seems thematically appropriate. Please PM me if you have objections.
Thanks
Jeremy
Besides, the subject of this thread was specifically designed to be provocative, but it's really about designing instrumentation to measure the playing style of chess programs.
Miguel
Clone detection test
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
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Re: Clone detection test
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Re: Clone detection test
I'm glad we're all in agreement, then. The thread stays put.Harvey Williamson wrote:Me to! This is the kind of intelligent discussion that should be available for all to read. It would be ironic if this gets moved but a thread offering Robbo for sale is allowed to remain in the main forum.michiguel wrote:I agree with Don.Don wrote:I have an objection because this particular thread is of a technical nature more than political. I view that other forum as non-technical and political and it probably would not attract the more serious engineers as much as this one would.sockmonkey wrote:Would anyone mind if this thread got relocated to the forum dedicated to Engine Origins, since that's ultimately what it's about? Seems thematically appropriate. Please PM me if you have objections.
Thanks
Jeremy
Besides, the subject of this thread was specifically designed to be provocative, but it's really about designing instrumentation to measure the playing style of chess programs.
Miguel
Jeremy
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Re: Clone detection test
Code: Select all
846 sf_strong sf16
758 doch-1.2 doch-1.0
734 robbo ippolito
720 komodo doch-1.2
706 sf15 sf14
687 komodo doch-1.0
671 sf16 sf15
655 rybka robbo
649 sf16 sf14
644 rybka ippolito
639 sf14 glaurung
638 sf_strong sf15
636 toga2 fruit
630 sf15 glaurung
617 sf_strong sf14
600 sf_strong glaurung
595 sf16 glaurung
594 rybka doch-1.2
589 fruit doch-1.0
582 rybka doch-1.0
581 rybka komodo
579 ippolito doch-1.0
573 robbo komodo
571 sf15 robbo
571 ippolito doch-1.2
569 sf15 rybka
568 robbo doch-1.2
565 sf_strong rybka
564 toga2 sf15
563 sf14 ippolito
561 toga2 sf14
561 toga2 doch-1.0
560 toga2 glaurung
560 komodo ippolito
559 sf14 robbo
559 robbo doch-1.0
559 fruit doch-1.2
558 sf14 rybka
557 sf_strong robbo
556 sf15 ippolito
554 sf16 rybka
554 sf16 robbo
554 sf15 komodo
553 komodo fruit
553 glaurung fruit
551 sf14 doch-1.0
549 sf15 doch-1.0
548 sf14 fruit
546 toga2 doch-1.2
544 sf15 fruit
544 glaurung doch-1.0
543 toga2 sf16
542 rybka glaurung
541 sf16 doch-1.0
538 sf16 ippolito
537 toga2 ippolito
536 toga2 komodo
536 sf_strong doch-1.0
536 sf14 komodo
535 toga2 robbo
534 sf16 fruit
534 ippolito fruit
532 komodo glaurung
531 sf_strong ippolito
531 sf15 doch-1.2
530 robbo fruit
528 glaurung doch-1.2
527 sf_strong komodo
527 sf16 doch-1.2
526 toga2 rybka
525 robbo glaurung
524 toga2 sf_strong
524 sf_strong doch-1.2
523 sf14 doch-1.2
523 rybka fruit
521 ippolito glaurung
519 sf16 komodo
514 sf_strong fruit
Hello,
I am newbie. :-) Greetings to all Posters.
My name is Hood, Robin Hood ;-) 007. :-) Hood is my user name.
I am sorry for the joke but for me that is getting a little bit funny.
I hope you will not kill me ;-) but... with all the respect to the correlation, bayesian probability and all statistical functions.
3= 1 + 1 + 1= 2 + 1 = 1 + 2 = 3 * 1 = 1 * 3 = 3 + 0 = 0 + 3 = 4 - 1 etc.
I have some doubts.
It is practicly alef 0 ( alef 0 is the number of natural figures) possibilities of getting the same move - result of calculating the mini max or other function by the engine and selecting the move.
So correlation will not give any of clone validation but it can be only the similarity criteria- (between engines).
Going further when we will get the better engines the similarity in moves selecting will be increasing.
The ideal player will choose the same moves in the same position if we agree with Tarrasch sentence that in the position there is the one the best move.
So ideal players will choose the same move, is not it ?
Regards
Locksley ;-)
Chris
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Re: Clone detection test
Apparently not. Only when there is a single best move is it that happening. But in chess there are a lot of positions where the choice of move is purely one of style.Hood wrote: Hello,
I am newbie. Greetings to all Posters.
My name is Hood, Robin Hood 007. Hood is my user name.
I am sorry for the joke but for me that is getting a little bit funny.
I hope you will not kill me but... with all the respect to the correlation, bayesian probability and all statistical functions.
3= 1 + 1 + 1= 2 + 1 = 1 + 2 = 3 * 1 = 1 * 3 = 3 + 0 = 0 + 3 = 4 - 1 etc.
I have some doubts.
It is practicly alef 0 ( alef 0 is the number of natural figures) possibilities of getting the same move - result of calculating the mini max or other function by the engine and selecting the move.
So correlation will not give any of clone validation but it can be only the similarity criteria- (between engines).
Going further when we will get the better engines the similarity in moves selecting will be increasing.
The ideal player will choose the same moves in the same position if we agree with Tarrasch sentence that in the position there is the one the best move.
So ideal players will choose the same move, is not it ?
Regards
Locksley
Chris
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- Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:59 pm
Re: Clone detection test
Somebody (De Groot?) had a number like 1.75 good moves per typical position, on average. There are obviously lots with only one good move, but then there are lots with several possibilities. Then of course, you can come across positions with a definite best move that is not obvious to a limited depth tree search...
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Re: Clone detection test
'Apparently not. Only when there is a single best move is it that happening. But in chess there are a lot of positions where the choice of move is purely one of style'
Style ... if it concerns human agree but in the case of program ?
I am trying to be the programmer and chess player. I am not chessprogramer but in that case I think it is the matter of the optimization function not the style.
Using the method of going 'ad absurdum' i am giving the example.
W: Kh1 B: Kg3 Qa2.
Here is mate in one. Qa1, Qb1, Qg2, Qh2
would you like to make the correllation function in that position , what conclusion could you make ?
One can say here are 4 equal moves, one can say that the best is Qa1 because it is the shortest move. I will be the latter. Moving the Q to a1 needs less energy.
Rgds
Chris
Style ... if it concerns human agree but in the case of program ?
I am trying to be the programmer and chess player. I am not chessprogramer but in that case I think it is the matter of the optimization function not the style.
Using the method of going 'ad absurdum' i am giving the example.
W: Kh1 B: Kg3 Qa2.
Here is mate in one. Qa1, Qb1, Qg2, Qh2
would you like to make the correllation function in that position , what conclusion could you make ?
One can say here are 4 equal moves, one can say that the best is Qa1 because it is the shortest move. I will be the latter. Moving the Q to a1 needs less energy.
Rgds
Chris
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- Location: Polska, Warszawa
Re: Clone detection test
"So just take a look in the assembler code of the engine and you know it all. Simple as that. "
Is it really so simple ?
In Java and C family:
++i, i++, i += 1, i = i + 1 can be translated to the same instruction set or not.
In Cobol : compute i = i + 1, add 1 to i ; can be the same as above.
Are ++i, i++ cloning proves that time ?
It was the time before Fruit, when the engines reached some level,
then Fruit was published and there was a jump in the strength of almost all engines. Can we say that all of them are clones of Fruit somehow ?
I think similar can happened with Rybka 3 and post Rybka engines.
including Ippolit families, Komodo etc.
If the program is not modified for the long time the others are closing the gap.
Rgds
Chris
Is it really so simple ?
In Java and C family:
++i, i++, i += 1, i = i + 1 can be translated to the same instruction set or not.
In Cobol : compute i = i + 1, add 1 to i ; can be the same as above.
Are ++i, i++ cloning proves that time ?
It was the time before Fruit, when the engines reached some level,
then Fruit was published and there was a jump in the strength of almost all engines. Can we say that all of them are clones of Fruit somehow ?
I think similar can happened with Rybka 3 and post Rybka engines.
including Ippolit families, Komodo etc.
If the program is not modified for the long time the others are closing the gap.
Rgds
Chris
Re: Clone detection test
I think this is a really interesting idea. Besides the obvious usage as a guide to potential clones, there are many other applications that it could be put too. As suggested above, choosing very different analysis partners, or comparing programs to human grandmasters. One idea I had was that if you wanted to build an engine with multiple "personalities" or playing styles, that you could use the test to mesure how dissimilar they are.
The thing I find the most interesting is the prospect of comparing programs to human players. Simply choose a large random sample of positions from published games of your "test subject" and then run the test. It could be interesting.
One interesting thing you could do with this is to see how similar programs that have had design input from a specific player are to that player.
I was thinking that it was a pity that the test couldn't be (reasonably) applied to human players. Then I thought about it some more had an idea. If you built up a set of correlations between a set of programs and players, shoudn't it be possible to derive a set of correlations between the players, using the correlations between the programs themselves to translate the player-to-program corellations into player-to-player corellations?
I don't know enough about statistics (I really must learn more about it someday) to know if this is feasable, or if there's some error that makes it not work. Does anyone here who does know statistics care to comment?
If it is doable, I think it'd be an interesting project, to compare, say, various world champions, to each other. It would also be interesting to see how closely players from the various "schools" are correllated, etc.
The thing I find the most interesting is the prospect of comparing programs to human players. Simply choose a large random sample of positions from published games of your "test subject" and then run the test. It could be interesting.
One interesting thing you could do with this is to see how similar programs that have had design input from a specific player are to that player.
I was thinking that it was a pity that the test couldn't be (reasonably) applied to human players. Then I thought about it some more had an idea. If you built up a set of correlations between a set of programs and players, shoudn't it be possible to derive a set of correlations between the players, using the correlations between the programs themselves to translate the player-to-program corellations into player-to-player corellations?
I don't know enough about statistics (I really must learn more about it someday) to know if this is feasable, or if there's some error that makes it not work. Does anyone here who does know statistics care to comment?
If it is doable, I think it'd be an interesting project, to compare, say, various world champions, to each other. It would also be interesting to see how closely players from the various "schools" are correllated, etc.
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Re: Clone detection test
Another interesting idea would be to have an engine learn a player's style from their games via some sort of automated eval tuning. That wouldn't be possible years ago because the engines were weaker than the uber-GMs... But as computers widen the gap, it might be possible to weaken them to play similar to a specific GM by building a custom book and using some sort of eval tuning.Karatorian wrote:I think this is a really interesting idea. Besides the obvious usage as a guide to potential clones, there are many other applications that it could be put too. As suggested above, choosing very different analysis partners, or comparing programs to human grandmasters. One idea I had was that if you wanted to build an engine with multiple "personalities" or playing styles, that you could use the test to mesure how dissimilar they are.
The thing I find the most interesting is the prospect of comparing programs to human players. Simply choose a large random sample of positions from published games of your "test subject" and then run the test. It could be interesting.
One interesting thing you could do with this is to see how similar programs that have had design input from a specific player are to that player.
I was thinking that it was a pity that the test couldn't be (reasonably) applied to human players. Then I thought about it some more had an idea. If you built up a set of correlations between a set of programs and players, shoudn't it be possible to derive a set of correlations between the players, using the correlations between the programs themselves to translate the player-to-program corellations into player-to-player corellations?
I don't know enough about statistics (I really must learn more about it someday) to know if this is feasable, or if there's some error that makes it not work. Does anyone here who does know statistics care to comment?
If it is doable, I think it'd be an interesting project, to compare, say, various world champions, to each other. It would also be interesting to see how closely players from the various "schools" are correllated, etc.
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- Location: Polska, Warszawa
Re: Clone detection test
yes, building correlation tables for:
- engines to humans
- humans to humans
will be very interested and more productive positively then engine to engine for clone hunting (in my shy opinion).
we can use nuclear energy for bad and good
Rgds
- engines to humans
- humans to humans
will be very interested and more productive positively then engine to engine for clone hunting (in my shy opinion).
we can use nuclear energy for bad and good
Rgds
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?
There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.
Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.
Cui bono ?
There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.
Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.