Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

[Ovyron]

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Thanks for accepting my challenge! This isn't about being right, just like I'm looking forward to seeing a defense for 1.g4 I'd really like to see you successfully defend this position! I can't imagine the impact of the lesson learned in the position I'd screw up!

I never thought I could find someone willing to defend a position like this, whatever happens be sure that I appreciate your time.

Let's go!

[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4r3/5pk1/1q1r1p1p/1p1Pn2Q/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R3R1K1 b - -"]

1... f5

[d]4r3/5pk1/1q1r3p/1p1Pnp1Q/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R3R1K1 w - -

[Zenmastur]

Previous Game

Previous Discussion

Source thread

Thanks for accepting my challenge! This isn't about being right, just like I'm looking forward to seeing a defense for 1.g4 I'd really like to see you successfully defend this position! I can't imagine the impact of the lesson learned in the position I'd screw up!

I never thought I could find someone willing to defend a position like this, whatever happens be sure that I appreciate your time.

Let's go!

[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4r3/5pk1/1q1r1p1p/1p1Pn2Q/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R3R1K1 b - -"]

1... f5

[d]4r3/5pk1/1q1r3p/1p1Pnp1Q/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R3R1K1 w - -

1... f5 2. Qd1

[d]4r3/5pk1/1q1r3p/1p1Pnp2/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R2QR1K1 b - -

[Ovyron]

2. Qd1

[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4r3/5pk1/1q1r1p1p/1p1Pn2Q/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R3R1K1 b - -"]

1... f5 2. Qd1 Rdd8

[d]3rr3/5pk1/1q5p/1p1Pnp2/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R2QR1K1 w - -

[Zenmastur]

2. Qd1

[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4r3/5pk1/1q1r1p1p/1p1Pn2Q/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R3R1K1 b - -"]

1... f5 2. Qd1 Rdd8

[d]3rr3/5pk1/1q5p/1p1Pnp2/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R2QR1K1 w - -

1... f5 2. Qd1 Rdd8 3.Re3

[d]3rr3/5pk1/1q5p/1p1Pnp2/1Pp4P/4R1P1/5PB1/R2Q2K1 b - - 3 3

[Ovyron]

(request to the audience to not comment on moves, any kind of influence could interfere with the game)

f4 could be drawn so I don't know what to play

My -2.50 score became smoke as it comes from a drawn position , and I put on hold all my games since last move was played for this one, since I have no idea how critical this move is, or how long it'd take me, it's time to come back to my games for a bit, and hopefully when I come back I can find more clarity.

Winning the black position is all about eval, and the only problem is all those high scoring positions that are drawn. If I manage to solve that problem it'll be a walk on the park. The idea is that for won position some weak engine at low depth should be able to win it, if not it could be a cursed win.

But methods that blow up black's score do not work (you can end up in some -3.00 position that is drawn or something.)

[Zenmastur]

(request to the audience to not comment on moves, any kind of influence could interfere with the game)

I'm don't think anyone is paying attention and those that are aren't likely to purposely interfer.

f4 could be drawn so I don't know what to play

All moves are probably a draw... if you play them badly enough!

My -2.50 score became smoke as it comes from a drawn position ,

I think you should get used to this. I figure it's going to happen on every single move you make. Right after you make it, you'll notice the the eval is based on a draw position! Such is life. Get used to it, it could be your new "norm"!

... and I put on hold all my games since last move was played for this one, since I have no idea how critical this move is, or how long it'd take me, it's time to come back to my games for a bit, and hopefully when I come back I can find more clarity.

Really? You can't be serious. Sounds WAAAAAAYYYY too dramatic for me!

I think your making a mountain out of a mole hill. On the other hand, I hope you like mole hills as you're likely to come across quite a few of them in this position!

[Ovyron]

Really? You can't be serious. Sounds WAAAAAAYYYY too dramatic for me!

It's because of this:

[d]8/8/5kBp/7P/5K2/8/r4P2/8 b - -

Found 145 tablebases
34/51 0:03 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Re1 82.Kd5 Kf4 83.Bf7 Re5+ 84.Kd4 Re7 85.Bg6 Rd7+ 86.Kc4 Rd2 87.Bf7 Ke5 (2.688.888) 764 TB:28.695
35/40 0:03 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Re1 82.Kd5 Kf4 83.Bf7 Re5+ 84.Kd4 Re7 85.Bg6 Rd7+ 86.Kc4 Rd2 87.Bf7 Ke5 (3.038.374) 842 TB:31.435
36/44 0:03 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke6 Rh2 83.Ke5 Rh1 84.Ke6 Re1+ 85.Kd5 Kf4 86.Bf7 Re5+ 87.Kd4 Re7 (3.278.156) 893 TB:33.025
37/45 0:03 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd7 83.Ke6 Rd1 84.Ke7 Re1+ 85.Kd6 Re2 86.Kd5 Kf4 87.Kd4 Rd2+ (3.482.953) 936 TB:34.457
38/47 0:03 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd7 83.Ke6 Rd1 84.Ke7 Re1+ 85.Kd6 Re2 86.Kd5 Kf4 87.Kd4 Rd2+ (3.542.996) 947 TB:34.798
39/47 0:04 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd7 83.Ke6 Rd1 84.Ke7 Re1+ 85.Kd6 Re2 86.Kd5 Kf4 87.Kd4 Rd2+ (3.944.739) 883 TB:38.414
40/45 0:05 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd7 83.Ke6 Rd1 84.Ke7 Re1+ 85.Kd6 Re2 86.Kd5 Kf4 87.Kd4 Re5 (4.065.523) 724 TB:39.772
41/45 0:06 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd7 83.Ke6 Rd1 84.Ke7 Re1+ 85.Kd6 Re2 86.Kd5 Kf4 87.Kd4 Re5 (4.981.434) 722 TB:47.571
42/52 0:06 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd7 83.Ke6 Rd1 84.Ke7 Re1+ 85.Kd6 Re2 86.Kd5 Kf4 87.Kd4 Re1 (5.012.380) 725 TB:47.660
43/52 0:07 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd7 83.Ke6 Rd1 84.Ke7 Re1+ 85.Kd6 Re2 86.Kd5 Kf4 87.Kd4 Re1 (5.182.216) 732 TB:49.106
44/50 0:07 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd7 83.Ke6 Rd1 84.Ke7 Re1+ 85.Kd6 Re2 86.Kd5 Kf4 87.Kd4 Re1 (5.547.379) 760 TB:52.036
45/52 0:08 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd7 83.Ke6 Rd1 84.Ke7 Re1+ 85.Kd6 Re2 86.Kd5 Kf4 87.Kd4 Rd2+ (6.929.477) 783 TB:63.522
46/50 0:08 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd1 83.Ke4 Re1+ 84.Kd4 Re7 85.Kd5 Re3 86.Kd4 Rh3 87.Ke4 Rh4+ (6.949.826) 783 TB:63.601
47/53 0:09 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd1 83.Ke4 Re1+ 84.Kd4 Re7 85.Kd5 Re3 86.Kd4 Rh3 87.Ke4 Rh4+ (7.321.364) 773 TB:67.405
48/52 0:10 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf4 82.Bf7 Re5 83.Bg6 Re3 84.Kc5 Re1 85.Kd5 Rd1+ 86.Kc4 Kg5 87.Kc3 Rd7 (8.023.203) 775 TB:73.657
49/57 0:10 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Rd2+ 82.Ke5 Rd1 83.Ke4 Rh1 84.Ke5 Rh4 85.Ke6 Rf4 86.Kd5 Rf1 87.Ke5 Kg4 (9.128.404) 841 TB:82.791
50/54 0:12 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf4 82.Bf7 Re1 83.Kd5 Re5+ 84.Kd4 Re2 85.Bg6 Rd2+ 86.Kc5 Ke5 87.Kc4 Rd4+ (11.404.568) 881 TB:100.302
51/58 0:13 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kg4 85.Kd4 Kf4 86.Bf7 Re1 87.Kd5 Re2 (12.461.367) 936 TB:104.925
52/58 0:13 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kg4 85.Kd4 Kf4 86.Bf7 Re2 87.Bg6 Re7 (13.370.943) 958 TB:111.279
53/57 0:14 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kf4 85.Kd4 Re2 86.Kd5 Rd2+ 87.Kc5 Rh2 (13.791.545) 937 TB:116.857
54/58 0:17 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kf4 85.Kd4 Re2 86.Kd5 Rd2+ 87.Kc5 Rh2 (17.369.436) 1021 TB:145.024
55/59 0:18 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kf4 85.Kd4 Re2 86.Kd5 Rd2+ 87.Kc5 Kg5 (20.431.763) 1124 TB:160.573
56/64 0:21 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kf4 85.Kd4 Re2 86.Kd5 Re1 87.Bf7 Re5+ (25.032.544) 1184 TB:197.695
57/59 0:24 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kf4 85.Kd4 Re2 86.Kd5 Re1 87.Bf7 Kg5 (28.651.598) 1185 TB:222.256
58/63 0:26 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kf4 85.Kd2 Rd5+ 86.Ke1 Rb5 87.Kd1 Ke5 (30.662.741) 1160 TB:261.869
59/64 0:28 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kf4 85.Kd2 Rd5+ 86.Ke1 Kg5 87.Ke2 Rd4 (34.762.555) 1223 TB:290.579
60/63 0:33 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kf4 85.Kd2 Rd5+ 86.Ke1 Kg5 87.Ke2 Rd4 (45.842.287) 1382 TB:339.071
61/66 0:51 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kf4 85.Kd2 Rd5+ 86.Ke1 Rd7 87.Ke2 Kg4 (96.095.047) 1868 TB:414.164
62/66 1:00 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kf4 85.Kd2 Rd5+ 86.Ke1 Rd7 87.Ke2 Kg4 (120.104.566) 1993 TB:422.710

A -3.45 position I can't win!

I'm about to be proven wrong in many things I've said, so that's dramatic for me! I can't believe winning from here seems harder than from the black side of 1.g4! I couldn't live with myself if I can't win from a won position, so it's time to get serious...

[Uri Blass]

Really? You can't be serious. Sounds WAAAAAAYYYY too dramatic for me!

It's because of this:

[d]8/8/5kBp/7P/5K2/8/r4P2/8 b - -

I'm about to be proven wrong in many things I've said, so that's dramatic for me! I can't believe winning from here seems harder than from the black side of 1.g4! I couldn't live with myself if I can't win from a won position, so it's time to get serious...

You only need to use the 7 piece tablebases to know that you cannot win with no analysis by engines and no hardware.

https://syzygy-tables.info/?fen=8/8/5kB ... _b_-_-_0_1

I did not analyze the game and of course I am going to say nothing about the game.

I will say only 2 general things about using software when you have a poor hardware and do not have 6 or 7 piece tablebases.

1)if you get a position with 7 pieces you should use the tablebases instead of analyzing it with the engine(you do not need to download big tablebases for it).
2)If you see that the engine you use fail to evaluate the position without tablebases correctly then maybe it is a good idea to try a different engine with evaluation that is more closer to draw score.

[Zenmastur]

Really? You can't be serious. Sounds WAAAAAAYYYY too dramatic for me!

It's because of this:

[d]8/8/5kBp/7P/5K2/8/r4P2/8 b - -

Found 145 tablebases
34/51 0:03 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Re1 82.Kd5 Kf4 83.Bf7 Re5+ 84.Kd4 Re7 85.Bg6 Rd7+ 86.Kc4 Rd2 87.Bf7 Ke5 (2.688.888) 764 TB:28.695
.
.
.
... snip snip ...
.
.
.
62/66 1:00 -3.45 74...Rxf2+ 75.Ke3 Rh2 76.Ke4 Rh4+ 77.Kd5 Rf4 78.Be8 Rf2 79.Bg6 Kg5 80.Ke5 Re2+ 81.Kd6 Kf6 82.Kc5 Re5+ 83.Kc4 Kg5 84.Kd3 Kf4 85.Kd2 Rd5+ 86.Ke1 Rd7 87.Ke2 Kg4 (120.104.566) 1993 TB:422.710

A -3.45 position I can't win!

I'm about to be proven wrong in many things I've said, so that's dramatic for me! I can't believe winning from here seems harder than from the black side of 1.g4! I couldn't live with myself if I can't win from a won position, so it's time to get serious...

Well, there's your problem!

It's very difficult to tell how difficult a problem is if you already know the answer. It's been a while since I work on this position and I wanted to see what it looked like from your perspective, so I loaded 5-man syzygy and did a multi-PV 4 on the current board position to see what it would come up with if I let it run a while. I figure if you let your computer run for a couple of weeks the output will look something like this:

Code: Select all

[-2.50 ]  Depth: 86/116  Nodes: 1969180574K Hash: 100% TB hits: 2135292945 Current:(4/41)

Notice that the score hasn't increased from your original score of -2.50. Of particular note is the number of table-base hits. In order to solve this problem you're likely to need to run this number up to over 200,000,000,000 TB hits using multi-PV = 1.

Who knows, maybe you'll get lucky!

Regards,

Zenmastur

[Uri Blass]

The problem is that all existing engines that I know are not designed to change their evaluation to smarter evaluation when they search deeper.
The problem is not only with poor hardware and the same problem can happen also to Zenmastur if he get a position with 8 pieces deep in the tree when he does not know the theoretical result of it and has no tablebases.

It is possible to make a stockfish derivative that is going to be designed to change the evaluation when it get deeper.

The idea is that when the program get iteration n then it not only searches deeper but also evaluate every node with smart(n) evaluation based on game of stockfish against itself at depth n

smart(n) may give mate score that is not a proved mate if one side wins the game or is going to return the evaluation of stockfish after searching to depth n in case that the game is a draw(even if the game is a draw I do not want to return draw score because there are drawing moves that are practically better).

Of course the program will need a long time to go deep but it is not clear for me that at correspondence time control it is going to be weaker than normal stockfish when note that the program may use the evaluation also for pruning.

If smart(n) returns draw only for 2 moves and loss for the rest of the moves the program may prune the rest of the moves in iteration n and if one of the rest of the moves is good it has a chance to discover it at iteration n+1 if smart(n+1) gives a different result(draw instead of loss).