Zenmastur vs Ovyron No it's not another GROB II!

[Ovyron]

So now, all of a sudden, you want to try to optimize your play??

Nah, what I minimized is the effort I have to put in this game. At least I saved the effort of making 3 posts.

It says after 36.Kd5 we transpose back to the known mate line, so I'll just copy over same conditionals and add a few more.

My move:

35...Rc2+ -M111

Conditionals:

IF 36. Kd5 THEN Kf6 -M110
IF 37. b6 THEN Rcc4 -M109
IF 38. Rd1 THEN Rc3 -M108
IF 39. Bf1 THEN Rb4 -M107
IF 40. Ra1 THEN h3 -M106
IF 41. Ra6 THEN h2 -M105
IF 42. Bg2 THEN Rc1 -M104
IF 43. b7+ THEN Kg5 -M103
IF 44. Ra8 THEN Rxb7 -M102
IF 45. Ke5 THEN Re7+ -M101
IF 46. Kd4 THEN Rd1+ -M100

I know 46...Rd7+ would be a mate in 13 or less, but I have to stick with the plan...

[Zenmastur]

So now, all of a sudden, you want to try to optimize your play??

Nah, what I minimized is the effort I have to put in this game. At least I saved the effort of making 3 posts.

It says after 36.Kd5 we transpose back to the known mate line, so I'll just copy over same conditionals and add a few more.

My move:

35...Rc2+ -M111

Conditionals:

IF 36. Kd5 THEN Kf6 -M110
IF 37. b6 THEN Rcc4 -M109
IF 38. Rd1 THEN Rc3 -M108
IF 39. Bf1 THEN Rb4 -M107
IF 40. Ra1 THEN h3 -M106
IF 41. Ra6 THEN h2 -M105
IF 42. Bg2 THEN Rc1 -M104
IF 43. b7+ THEN Kg5 -M103
IF 44. Ra8 THEN Rxb7 -M102
IF 45. Ke5 THEN Re7+ -M101
IF 46. Kd4 THEN Rd1+ -M100

I know 46...Rd7+ would be a mate in 13 or less, but I have to stick with the plan...

Resigns 0-1

[Ovyron]

Thanks for the game!

I never did a serious analysis of the game with engines but
I wonder what is the hard move to find for chess engines that caused some people after some analysis to say that maybe the position after 3...f4 is a draw.

I'd really want to know too. Finding a plan for 3...f4 was easy (it just took me several days...), but I could never find a plan for any of the other moves (including the one I was supposed to play - still no idea what it was.)

It's possible my hardware wouldn't allow me to find a win for other alternative 3rd moves, but if I hadn't seen 3...f4 as winning (back when I thought 7men TB draws were winning) this game wouldn't have happened at all.

I wished to beat Zenmastur in a game, and I'm left with a bad taste, but I'll take it.

[Zenmastur]

Thanks for the game!

I never did a serious analysis of the game with engines but
I wonder what is the hard move to find for chess engines that caused some people after some analysis to say that maybe the position after 3...f4 is a draw.

I'd really want to know too. Finding a plan for 3...f4 was easy (it just took me several days...), but I could never find a plan for any of the other moves (including the one I was supposed to play - still no idea what it was.)

I don't have all my original analysis for 3...Qf6, just fragments. A major electrical substation near my house had a transformer blow-up during the game and trashed my UPS. The UPS saved the computer and the routers but the computer did crash and scrambled the main database I was using at the time. I had a backup but it wasn't fully up to date so I lost much of my analysis. This is some of what I have left of the original analysis.

Code: Select all

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2020.04.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Jdart"]
[Black "1. ...f5 2.Qd1"]
[Result "*"]
[EventDate "2020.04.25"]
[FEN "4r3/5pk1/1q1r1p1p/1p1Pn2Q/1Pp4P/6P1/5PB1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 1"]

{[Stockfish 070420 64 POPCNT] 43:-1.86} 
1. ... f5 
    
2. Qd1 Rdd8 
    
3. Re3 Qf6 4. Ra5 Nd3 5. Rxd3 
    ( {[Stockfish 030520 64 POPCNT] 46:-7.79} 5. Qf3 Rxe3 6. Qxe3 Rc8 7. 
    d6 Qxd6 8. Rxb5 c3 9. Rd5 Qxb4 10. Rxd3 c2 11. Qe5+ Kg8 12. Qxf5 c1=Q+
    13. Kh2 Qbb2 14. Bd5 Rf8 15. Rf3 Kh8 16. Be4 Qg7 17. Rf4 Qc8 18. Qd5 
    Qe6 19. Qa5 Qge5 20. Qa4 f5 21. Bg2 Kg7 22. Bh3 Rf7 23. Qd1 Qc6 24. 
    Qb1 Qc8 25. Bg2 Qcc5 26. Bh3 Qce7 27. Qa2 Q7d6 28. Qa4 Qdc5 29. Qa2 
    Qe1 30. Qa8 )
    ( {[Stockfish 030520 64 POPCNT] 48:-7.83} 5. Rxd3 cxd3 6. Qxd3 f4 7. 
    Kh2 Qb2 8. gxf4 Re2 9. Kg1 Rde8 10. Qg3+ Kh7 11. Ra7 Qf6 12. Rc7 Rd2 
    13. Kh2 Rd4 14. h5 Rxf4 15. Qg6+ Qxg6 16. hxg6+ Kxg6 17. d6 Rd8 18. d7
    Kf6 19. Kg3 Rxb4 20. Rb7 Rg8+ 21. Kf3 h5 22. Ke2 h4 23. Rc7 Ke7 24. 
    Bh3 Rd8 25. Kf3 Rc4 26. Rb7 b4 27. Bf5 Kd6 28. Rb6+ Kc7 29. Ra6 Rc3+ 
    30. Kf4 h3 31. f3 b3 32. Ra7+ Kb6 33. Ra1 h2 34. Rh1 Rc5 35. Be4 Rh5 
    36. Kg4 Rhh8 37. Bf5 b2 38. Kf4 Kc7 39. Ke3 Rh4 40. Bg4 b1=Q 41. Rxb1 
    h1=Q 42. Rxh1 Rxh1 )
5. ... cxd3 6. Qxd3 f4 7. Rxb5 fxg3 8. fxg3 
    ( {[Stockfish 030520 64 POPCNT] 53:-9.92} 8. Qxg3+ Kh8 9. Rc5 Rg8 10. 
    Qc3 Qxc3 11. Rxc3 Rxd5 12. Rc7 Rf5 13. Rc6 Kg7 14. Be4 Rf4 15. f3 Rxh4
    16. b5 Rh5 17. b6 Rb5 18. Rd6 Rb2 19. b7 Re8 20. Kf1 Re5 21. Rd8 Rc5 
    22. Rc8 Rh5 23. f4 Ra5 24. Ra8 Rab5 25. Ke1 h5 26. Kd1 h4 27. Ra3 R2b4
    28. Bc6 Rb6 29. Rc3 Rxf4 30. Rc5 Rfb4 31. Ke1 Rb2 32. Kf1 h3 33. Kg1 
    R6b4 34. Kh1 Kf6 35. Rc3 Rf4 36. Rc1 Kg7 37. Rg1+ Kh6 38. Bd5 f5 39. 
    b8=R Rxb8 )
    ( {[Stockfish 030520 64 POPCNT] 52:-10.96} 8. fxg3 Re1+ 9. Kh2 Qe5 10.
     Qf3 Rd6 11. Rb7 Rf6 12. Qg4+ Kh7 13. h5 Qg5 14. Qxg5 hxg5 15. d6 Rd1 
    16. d7 g4 17. Rc7 Rf2 18. b5 Rb2 19. b6 Rdd2 20. Kh1 Rxb6 21. d8=R 
    Rxd8 22. Rxf7+ Kh6 23. Rb7 Re6 24. Rb2 Re1+ 25. Kh2 Kxh5 26. Ra2 Rh8 
    27. Bb7 Re3 28. Ra8 Rh7 29. Ba6 Ra3 30. Bb7 Rb3 31. Ba6 Rc7 32. Rc8 
    Ra7 33. Rc5+ Kh6 34. Rc6+ Kg5 35. Rc5+ Kf6 36. Rb5 Ra3 37. Rb6+ Ke5 
    38. Bf1 Ra2+ 39. Kg1 R7a3 40. Rb5+ Kd6 41. Rb6+ Kc5 42. Rb5+ Kc6 43. 
    Rg5 Rxg3+ 44. Kh1 Kd6 45. Rb5 Rc2 46. Ra5 Ke7 47. Ra4 Kf6 )
8. ... Re1+ 9. Kh2 
    ( {[Stockfish 030520 64 POPCNT] 77:-10.52} 9. Kh2 Qe5 10. d6 Re3 11. 
    Rxe5 Rxd3 12. Rf5 R8xd6 13. b5 Rc3 14. Bd5 f6 15. Bf3 Rd2+ 16. Kh3 Rb2
    17. g4 Rcb3 18. b6 Rc3 19. Kg3 Rxb6 20. Rf4 Rb7 21. Rd4 Rbb3 22. Rf4 
    Rd3 23. Kg2 Rd2+ 24. Kg3 Re2 25. Rc4 Ree3 26. Rf4 Re5 27. Kg2 Re1 28. 
    Kg3 Rd3 29. Ra4 Rf1 30. Rf4 Ra1 31. Rb4 Raa3 32. Rf4 Rdb3 33. Kg2 Rb2+
    34. Kg3 Re2 35. Rb4 Ree3 36. Rf4 Re5 37. Rb4 Re2 38. Rb7+ Kg8 39. Rb8+
    Kf7 40. Rb7+ Re7 41. Rb4 Ree3 42. Rf4 Ke6 43. Kf2 Red3 44. Kg3 Rd1 45.
     Re4+ Kf7 46. Rb4 Rf1 47. Rf4 Rb1 48. Rd4 Rbb3 49. Rf4 Rb5 50. Kg2 Rd3
    51. Rc4 Rb2+ 52. Kg3 Rbb3 53. Rf4 Rd5 54. Kg2 Rc5 55. Bd1 Re3 56. Bf3 
    Rd3 57. Ra4 Rc2+ 58. Kg3 Rcc3 59. Rf4 Rc1 60. Kh3 Kg7 61. Kg3 Rf1 62. 
    Kg2 Ra1 63. Kg3 Rc3 64. Rb4 Rf1 )
9. ... Qe5 10. d6 
        ( {[Stockfish 030520 64 POPCNT] 78:-10.62} 10. d6 Re3 11. Rxe5 Rxd3 
    12. Rf5 R8xd6 13. b5 Rc3 14. Bd5 f6 15. Bf3 Rd2+ 16. Kh3 Rb2 17. g4 
    Rcb3 18. b6 Re3 19. Rf4 Rxb6 20. Kg3 Rb1 21. Kg2 Rb5 22. Rd4 Ra3 23. 
    Rd7+ Kf8 24. Rd4 Rbb3 25. Rf4 Kg7 26. Kg3 Ra5 27. Kg2 Ra2+ 28. Kg3 Re2
    29. Rc4 Ra3 30. Rb4 Ree3 31. Rf4 Re5 32. Rb4 Re2 33. Rb7+ Kg8 34. Rb8+
    Kf7 35. Rb7+ Re7 36. Rb4 Ree3 37. Rf4 Re1 38. Rb4 Rf1 39. Rf4 Ke6 40. 
    Re4+ Kd6 41. Rf4 Ke5 42. Rf5+ Ke6 43. Kg2 Rb1 44. Rf4 Re1 45. Rc4 Ree3
    46. Rf4 Rec3 47. Re4+ Kf7 48. Rf4 Kg7 49. Kg3 Ra1 50. Rb4 Rf1 51. Rf4 
    Rg1+ 52. Kf2 Rb1 53. Kg3 Rb2 54. Rd4 Rbb3 55. Rf4 Rc5 56. Kg2 Rc7 57. 
    Kf2 Rbc3 58. Rb4 Rd7 59. Kg3 Rdd3 60. Rf4 Rc2 61. Rf5 Rc4 62. Ra5 Rcc3
    63. Rf5 Rb3 64. Rf4 Kg6 65. Kg2 Rd2+ 66. Kg3 )
    ( {[Stockfish 030520 64 POPCNT] 81:-10.62} 10. d6 Re3 11. Rxe5 Rxd3 
    12. Rf5 R8xd6 13. b5 Rc3 14. Bd5 f6 15. Bf3 Rd2+ 16. Kh3 Rb2 17. g4 
    Rcb3 18. b6 Rc3 19. Kg3 Rxb6 20. Rf4 Rbb3 21. Kg2 Re3 22. Kf2 Re7 23. 
    Bd5 Rb5 24. Bf3 Rb2+ 25. Kg3 Rb3 26. Rd4 Ree3 27. Rf4 Rb1 28. Kg2 Rb5 
    29. Rd4 Rb2+ 30. Kg3 Ra3 31. Rd7+ Kg8 32. Rd4 Rbb3 33. Rf4 Kg7 34. Kg2
    Rb2+ 35. Kg3 Rc2 36. Rb4 Rcc3 37. Rf4 Rd3 38. Kg2 Rd7 39. Kg3 Rb3 40. 
    Rc4 Rd2 41. Rf4 Rd1 42. Ra4 Rdd3 43. Rf4 Rbc3 44. Rf5 Rc7 45. Rf4 Rc2 
    46. Rf5 Re2 47. Rf4 Rc3 48. Rb4 Ree3 49. Rf4 Rc1 50. Rd4 Rf1 51. Rf4 
    Ra1 52. Kf2 Rb3 53. Kg3 Kg6 54. Rc4 Rf1 55. Rf4 Ra3 56. Kg2 Re1 57. 
    Rd4 Ree3 58. Rf4 Rec3 59. Kg3 Rcb3 60. Kf2 Ra2+ 61. Kg3 )
10. ... Re3 11. Rxe5 Rxd3 12. Rf5 R8xd6 13. b5 Rc3 14. Rf2 
    ( {[Stockfish 030520 64 POPCNT] 73:-11.07} 14. Bd5 f6 15. Bf3 Rd2+ 16.
     Kh3 Rb2 17. g4 Rcb3 18. b6 Rd3 19. Kg3 Rxb6 20. Ra5 Rbb3 21. Rf5 Rbc3
    22. Rf4 Rc5 23. Kg2 Ra3 24. Rd4 Rcc3 25. Rf4 Rd3 26. Kg3 Rd1 27. Rc4 
    Rf1 28. Rf4 Rg1+ 29. Kf2 Rb1 30. Kg3 Rb5 31. Kg2 Rb2+ 32. Kg3 Rc3 33. 
    Re4 Rb1 34. Re7+ Kf8 35. Re4 Rd1 36. Re6 Kf7 37. Re4 Rf1 38. Rf4 Kg6 
    39. Rf5 Kg7 40. Rf4 Ra1 41. Rb4 Raa3 42. Rf4 Rab3 43. Kg2 Rd3 44. Kg3 
    Kg6 45. Kg2 Rb2+ 46. Kg3 Rc2 47. Rf5 Rcc3 48. Rf4 Rd2 49. Rf5 Re3 50. 
    Rf4 Ra2 51. Rb4 Raa3 52. Rf4 Ra1 53. Kf2 Rc3 54. Kg2 Rc2+ 55. Kh3 Kg7 
    56. Re4 Rc3 57. Kg3 Rb3 58. Rf4 Ra5 59. Kg2 Ra2+ 60. Kg3 Re2 61. Rd4 
    Ree3 62. Rf4 )
14. ... Rb3 
    ( {[Stockfish 030520 64 POPCNT] 74:-147.92} 14. ... Rb3 15. Bc6 Rd4 
    16. Be8 f6 17. Bc6 Rdd3 18. Rc2 f5 19. Rg2 Rd4 20. Rf2 Kf6 21. Kh3 
    Rdd3 22. Rg2 f4 23. Kg4 fxg3 24. Kh3 Rd4 25. Rxg3 Rbb4 26. Rf3+ Kg7 
    27. Rg3+ Kh7 28. h5 Rh4+ 29. Kg2 Rxh5 30. Re3 Kg7 31. Kg3 Rg5+ 32. Kh3
    Kf6 33. Rd3 Rf5 34. Kg3 Kg5 35. Kh3 Rff4 36. Rd5+ Kf6 37. Kg3 Rg4+ 38.
     Kf3 Rh4 39. Rd6+ Ke7 40. Rd7+ Ke6 41. Kg3 Rhg4+ 42. Kh3 Rgf4 43. Rd3 
    Kf6 44. Bf3 Kg5 45. Be2 Rh4+ 46. Kg3 Rxb5 47. Kg2 Rb2 48. Kg3 Ra4 49. 
    Bf3 Ra5 50. Be4 h5 51. Bg2 Rb4 52. Kh3 Rab5 53. Kh2 Rh4+ 54. Kg3 Rg4+ 
    55. Kh2 Rb2 56. Kh1 Rh4+ 57. Kg1 Rb1+ 58. Kf2 )

This isn't all of the analysis but it should be enough to figure out what's going on. IIRC I had worked a TB mate score back to the root of the position after 3...Qf6, but I can't find it in what I have left of my analysis and I'm not feeling well enough to go back and recreate it.

It's possible my hardware wouldn't allow me to find a win for other alternative 3rd moves, but if I hadn't seen 3...f4 as winning (back when I thought 7men TB draws were winning) this game wouldn't have happened at all.

I wished to beat Zenmastur in a game, and I'm left with a bad taste, but I'll take it.

Sorry, I've been sick almost the entire game. I wanted to resign earlier because I felt so bad. I also wanted to see more of your conditionals as they tell exactly how good (or bad) your analysis really is. I was going to play on for that exact purpose. But in the end I've been feeling pretty bad and, I didn't feel like you were likely to blunder the win even though you thought it was more than a hundred moves away. If you really want to play it to the end we can, just don't expect me to be too responsive. I would like to see some more of your conditionals.

Regards,

Zenmastur

[Ovyron]

This isn't all of the analysis but it should be enough to figure out what's going on.

Not really - My problem with Qf6 is that white has many, many lines of defense and eventually they explode and I didn't want to have to spend weeks on a move to try to win. I never went over depth 38 for this game, and I could hold my own against Stockfish Depth 32 as black (the draw lines.) After 3...f4 all I needed to do was basically say that all 7men position were either 0.00 or clearly won (+4.00 scores), and then the plan where 7men positions were at least +4.00 appeared, and I couldn't find a single drawing line.

You had like... 6 main ideas of defense, it was a lot more manageable, but after the h pawn is unopposed white is hopeless (which... you already knew, I didn't know I was winning for certain until move 17. But after the game I'm now certain I'm winning after 3...f4 - never found a win for other white 2nd or first alternatives, but I'm sure you played the toughest white defense.)

I hold 3...f4 is the simplest win, even if 3...Qf6 is the shortest way to victory if played well.

Sorry, I've been sick almost the entire game. I wanted to resign earlier because I felt so bad. I also wanted to see more of your conditionals as they tell exactly how good (or bad) your analysis really is. I was going to play on for that exact purpose. But in the end I've been feeling pretty bad and, I didn't feel like you were likely to blunder the win even though you thought it was more than a hundred moves away. If you really want to play it to the end we can, just don't expect me to be too responsive. I would like to see some more of your conditionals.

Oh, the bad taste was because of the deafening silence, but you fixed that with that post . Thanks for sharing your analysis and I'm sorry that you're still sick, wishing you a better health for you and your loved ones, and for spending all the time you did for this game despite of it.

I'll not defend my analysis's quality (I knowingly could have played a line that mated 87 moves slower than necessary) but it followed The Law Of Least Effort (path of least resistance) and it was enough.

I just read again the original thread and realized what an honor it was that this position made you think about me and how I got to play you.

gg

[Zenmastur]

This isn't all of the analysis but it should be enough to figure out what's going on.

Not really - My problem with Qf6 is that white has many, many lines of defense and eventually they explode and I didn't want to have to spend weeks on a move to try to win. I never went over depth 38 for this game, and I could hold my own against Stockfish Depth 32 as black (the draw lines.) After 3...f4 all I needed to do was basically say that all 7men position were either 0.00 or clearly won (+4.00 scores), and then the plan where 7men positions were at least +4.00 appeared, and I couldn't find a single drawing line.

You had like... 6 main ideas of defense, it was a lot more manageable, but after the h pawn is unopposed white is hopeless (which... you already knew, I didn't know I was winning for certain until move 17. But after the game I'm now certain I'm winning after 3...f4 - never found a win for other white 2nd or first alternatives, but I'm sure you played the toughest white defense.)

I hold 3...f4 is the simplest win, even if 3...Qf6 is the shortest way to victory if played well.

Sorry, I've been sick almost the entire game. I wanted to resign earlier because I felt so bad. I also wanted to see more of your conditionals as they tell exactly how good (or bad) your analysis really is. I was going to play on for that exact purpose. But in the end I've been feeling pretty bad and, I didn't feel like you were likely to blunder the win even though you thought it was more than a hundred moves away. If you really want to play it to the end we can, just don't expect me to be too responsive. I would like to see some more of your conditionals.

Oh, the bad taste was because of the deafening silence, but you fixed that with that post . Thanks for sharing your analysis and I'm sorry that you're still sick, wishing you a better health for you and your loved ones, and for spending all the time you did for this game despite of it.

I'll not defend my analysis's quality (I knowingly could have played a line that mated 87 moves slower than necessary) but it followed The Law Of Least Effort (path of least resistance) and it was enough.

I just read again the original thread and realized what an honor it was that this position made you think about me and how I got to play you.

gg

I just took a quick look at how I played this game. I must have been completely delusional during most of the game. I can't believe how bad my play was. It wasn't obvious to me at the time. I was suffering quite a bit, but I had no idea how much it was affecting my play. I guess I should have just stopped the game when I started feeling bad.

[Ovyron]

I just took a quick look at how I played this game. I must have been completely delusional during most of the game. I can't believe how bad my play was. It wasn't obvious to me at the time. I was suffering quite a bit, but I had no idea how much it was affecting my play. I guess I should have just stopped the game when I started feeling bad.

You can try again if you want - maybe draw odds - if you draw, you beat me.

Maybe a different second move? 2. Qd1 already told its story...

[Zenmastur]

I just took a quick look at how I played this game. I must have been completely delusional during most of the game. I can't believe how bad my play was. It wasn't obvious to me at the time. I was suffering quite a bit, but I had no idea how much it was affecting my play. I guess I should have just stopped the game when I started feeling bad.

You can try again if you want - maybe draw odds - if you draw, you beat me.

Maybe a different second move? 2. Qd1 already told its story...

2.Qd1 wasn't the problem. I don't know if it's worth doing it again, after all it's still lost regardless of what I play AND I really hate playing lost positions. Plus I'm still not doing so well. That's one of the reasons I haven't been posting much. I was told the other day I need surgery etc etc. Until I get the issues resolved I'm not up for doing much.

[Ovyron]

Okay, looking forward to seeing you in perfect health!