One thing to add. The neural network doesn't score "lines"=sequences of moves but positions. I think saying that the neural network "stores" scores for positions/lines (or whatever...) makes it sound like A0 zero has a list and a score for each element in that list which is not true. Even if you show the neural network a position it has never seen before, it will still give a good result because it has learned concepts which is very different from an openingbook that can't say anything about a position which it has never seen before.Vinvin wrote:Yes, the learning data can compare to a book.Dann Corbit wrote:Did AlphaZero have a book?
It's a memory filled good score for lines that give good results (and bad score for lines that gives bad results). There's a small difference because opening lines are not hardcoded (= not a numerical value for each line) but store in a neural network. But with a lot of learning NN become a book with only good moves get only good eval.
This can be compare with old book learning. Example for HIARCS here : http://www.hiarcs.com/pc_uci_options.htmWhen the engine wins with a line, the score increase for this line.Book Learning (ON)
This setting allows HIARCS to use its experiences with the current book to make decisions about which moves to make from the book. HIARCS has clever book learning so please use it! The default is ON and clearly best.
AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
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Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
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- Posts: 273
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:49 pm
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
One thing to add. The neural network doesn't score "lines"=sequences of moves but positions. I think saying that the neural network "stores" scores for positions/lines (or whatever...) makes it sound like A0 zero has a list and a score for each element in that list which is not true. Even if you show the neural network a position it has never seen before, it will still give a good result because it has learned concepts which is very different from an openingbook that can't say anything about a position which it has never seen before.Vinvin wrote:Yes, the learning data can compare to a book.Dann Corbit wrote:Did AlphaZero have a book?
It's a memory filled good score for lines that give good results (and bad score for lines that gives bad results). There's a small difference because opening lines are not hardcoded (= not a numerical value for each line) but store in a neural network. But with a lot of learning NN become a book with only good moves get only good eval.
This can be compare with old book learning. Example for HIARCS here : http://www.hiarcs.com/pc_uci_options.htmWhen the engine wins with a line, the score increase for this line.Book Learning (ON)
This setting allows HIARCS to use its experiences with the current book to make decisions about which moves to make from the book. HIARCS has clever book learning so please use it! The default is ON and clearly best.
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- Posts: 273
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:49 pm
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
Vinvin wrote:Yes, the learning data can compare to a book.Dann Corbit wrote:Did AlphaZero have a book?
It's a memory filled good score for lines that give good results (and bad score for lines that gives bad results). There's a small difference because opening lines are not hardcoded (= not a numerical value for each line) but store in a neural network. But with a lot of learning NN become a book with only good moves get only good eval.
This can be compare with old book learning. Example for HIARCS here : http://www.hiarcs.com/pc_uci_options.htmWhen the engine wins with a line, the score increase for this line.Book Learning (ON)
This setting allows HIARCS to use its experiences with the current book to make decisions about which moves to make from the book. HIARCS has clever book learning so please use it! The default is ON and clearly best.
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- Posts: 273
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:49 pm
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
Vinvin wrote:Yes, the learning data can compare to a book.Dann Corbit wrote:Did AlphaZero have a book?
It's a memory filled good score for lines that give good results (and bad score for lines that gives bad results). There's a small difference because opening lines are not hardcoded (= not a numerical value for each line) but store in a neural network. But with a lot of learning NN become a book with only good moves get only good eval.
This can be compare with old book learning. Example for HIARCS here : http://www.hiarcs.com/pc_uci_options.htmWhen the engine wins with a line, the score increase for this line.Book Learning (ON)
This setting allows HIARCS to use its experiences with the current book to make decisions about which moves to make from the book. HIARCS has clever book learning so please use it! The default is ON and clearly best.
-
- Posts: 273
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:49 pm
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
One thing to add. The neural network doesn't score "lines"=sequences of moves but positions. I think saying that the neural network "stores" scores for positions/lines (or whatever...) makes it sound like A0 zero has a list and a score for each element in that list which is not true. Even if you show the neural network a position it has never seen before, it will still give a good result because it has learned concepts which is very different from an openingbook that can't say anything about a position which it has never seen before.Vinvin wrote:Yes, the learning data can compare to a book.Dann Corbit wrote:Did AlphaZero have a book?
It's a memory filled good score for lines that give good results (and bad score for lines that gives bad results). There's a small difference because opening lines are not hardcoded (= not a numerical value for each line) but store in a neural network. But with a lot of learning NN become a book with only good moves get only good eval.
This can be compare with old book learning. Example for HIARCS here : http://www.hiarcs.com/pc_uci_options.htmWhen the engine wins with a line, the score increase for this line.Book Learning (ON)
This setting allows HIARCS to use its experiences with the current book to make decisions about which moves to make from the book. HIARCS has clever book learning so please use it! The default is ON and clearly best.
-
- Posts: 273
- Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:49 pm
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
One thing to add. The neural network doesn't score "lines"=sequences of moves but positions. I think saying that the neural network "stores" scores for positions/lines (or whatever...) makes it sound like A0 zero has a list and a score for each element in that list which is not true. Even if you show the neural network a position it has never seen before, it will still give a good result because it has learned concepts which is very different from an openingbook that can't say anything about a position which it has never seen before.Vinvin wrote:Yes, the learning data can compare to a book.Dann Corbit wrote:Did AlphaZero have a book?
It's a memory filled good score for lines that give good results (and bad score for lines that gives bad results). There's a small difference because opening lines are not hardcoded (= not a numerical value for each line) but store in a neural network. But with a lot of learning NN become a book with only good moves get only good eval.
This can be compare with old book learning. Example for HIARCS here : http://www.hiarcs.com/pc_uci_options.htmWhen the engine wins with a line, the score increase for this line.Book Learning (ON)
This setting allows HIARCS to use its experiences with the current book to make decisions about which moves to make from the book. HIARCS has clever book learning so please use it! The default is ON and clearly best.
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Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
+ The humans do the same thing : if they win a lot game with an opening line, they try to repeat this opening.Vinvin wrote:Yes, the learning data can compare to a book.Dann Corbit wrote:Did AlphaZero have a book?
It's a memory filled good score for lines that give good results (and bad score for lines that gives bad results). There's a small difference because opening lines are not hardcoded (= not a numerical value for each line) but store in a neural network. But with a lot of learning NN become a book with only good moves get only good eval.
This can be compare with old book learning. Example for HIARCS here : http://www.hiarcs.com/pc_uci_options.htmWhen the engine wins with a line, the score increase for this line.Book Learning (ON)
This setting allows HIARCS to use its experiences with the current book to make decisions about which moves to make from the book. HIARCS has clever book learning so please use it! The default is ON and clearly best.
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- Posts: 5228
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:40 am
- Full name: Vincent Lejeune
Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
+ The humans do the same thing : if they win a lot with an opening line, they try to repeat it.Vinvin wrote:Yes, the learning data can compare to a book.Dann Corbit wrote:Did AlphaZero have a book?
It's a memory filled good score for lines that give good results (and bad score for lines that gives bad results). There's a small difference because opening lines are not hardcoded (= not a numerical value for each line) but store in a neural network. But with a lot of learning NN become a book with only good moves get only good eval.
This can be compare with old book learning. Example for HIARCS here : http://www.hiarcs.com/pc_uci_options.htmWhen the engine wins with a line, the score increase for this line.Book Learning (ON)
This setting allows HIARCS to use its experiences with the current book to make decisions about which moves to make from the book. HIARCS has clever book learning so please use it! The default is ON and clearly best.
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Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
This is simply wrong. NN stores 8 moves in its history, i.e. 8 previous positions that were leading to the position that is being evaluated. I'm not gonna quote or argue. This is simply a fact. If you don't get it why, read the bloody paper.CheckersGuy wrote:One thing to add. The neural network doesn't score "lines"=sequences of moves but positions. I think saying that the neural network "stores" scores for positions/lines (or whatever...) makes it sound like A0 zero has a list and a score for each element in that list which is not true.
That is just your speculation. There is not enough evidence to support this.Even if you show the neural network a position it has never seen before, it will still give a good result because it has learned concepts which is very different from an openingbook that can't say anything about a position which it has never seen before.
As far as we know, NN might not even know how to win KRK without search.
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Re: AlphaZero Chess test - SF8 16 GB vs. 512 MB
How does fixed time destroy SF's search? Does the search operate in a different manner based on the time control?Jouni wrote:I did some single core test 1 MB vs. 64 MB. HERT500.PGN book. With fixed time=1 sec 1 MB was better than bigger? With 60s + 0,6s it changed totally:Obviously fixed time per move DESTROYS SF SEARCH BADLY!Code: Select all
1 SF 64MB +42 +33/=158/-9 56.00% 112.0/200 2 SF 1MB -42 +9/=158/-33 44.00% 88.0/200