Nakamura vs. Komodo

[Uri Blass]

Just curious : how much money did Ikaru win for this 1.5/4 ?

Since chess.com is involved, I'm not at liberty to say what his base fee was, but he got a bonus of $200 per draw and $600 per win, so $600 bonus.

I think that this money is not enough to encourage the human to prepare seriously(I expect the human to do better with 200,000$ per draw and 600,000$ per win when the human has 6 months to prepare).

Of course nakamura did his best during the game but he
probably did not build a big opening book to memorize before the games and did not train at home by playing many games from different lines in the book against Komodo with 45+15.

I do not blame people for the conditions and my point is only that people who get the conclusion that pawn is not enough for top humans to win against the machines may be wrong even at 45+15.

Without preperation
Nakamura has the relative disadvantage that unlike normal chess he has not a big opening book that he memorize when for komodo it is not so important because komodo usually can find the best moves by itself in the opening.

[Laskos]

so do you think it will be possible in the future for kommodo to give pawn and move odds and beat the world champion under normal game conditions. would 200-300 extra elo be sufficient ?

To beat the champion with say 70-80% probability (to call it consistent beating) at regular TC with f7 odds would require probably more, maybe 400-600 extra CCRL ELO. I am not sure how Komodo stands today on this handicap against a 2800 GM, and it depends also on individual GM too.

I am not sure if it is possible to beat the best players with f7 odd assuming they prepare by constructing a special opening book with 100,000 lines or more than it and memorize the book.

Assuming the human prepare then I think that the weight of the ability to memorize many lines is relatively more important than normal chess.

The weight of the book probably increases with f7 removed, but it's probably not becoming overwhelming. At c2 + f2 odds it may become overwhelming, IIRC a GM trashed Komodo with this handicap right from prepared by GM opening.

[APassionForCriminalJustic]

Just curious : how much money did Ikaru win for this 1.5/4 ?

Since chess.com is involved, I'm not at liberty to say what his base fee was, but he got a bonus of $200 per draw and $600 per win, so $600 bonus.

I think that this money is not enough to encourage the human to prepare seriously(I expect the human to do better with 200,000$ per draw and 600,000$ per win when the human has 6 months to prepare).

Of course nakamura did his best during the game but he
probably did not build a big opening book to memorize before the games and did not train at home by playing many games from different lines in the book against Komodo with 45+15.

I do not blame people for the conditions and my point is only that people who get the conclusion that pawn is not enough for top humans to win against the machines may be wrong even at 45+15.

Without preperation
Nakamura has the relative disadvantage that unlike normal chess he has not a big opening book that he memorize when for komodo it is not so important because komodo usually can find the best moves by itself in the opening.

These are handicap matches. The human is already getting significant advantages in the opening. We are not speaking about some crazy 180 minute game or classical time controls in a world championship match. You could offer the players one million per victory and allow them to prepare significantly; however, still beating the computer would be extremely difficult.

[Vinvin]

I've heard that same crap from some of the noobs out there who know absolutely nothing about how strong computers really are. Engines today, particularly Stockfish and Komodo, play the endgame in ways in which a human being could not even dream of. The complicated endgame positions that I've seen Komodo win on my 28 core are out of this world. Literally the endgames are so complex that one or two slightly inferior moves made by the winning side could then find themselves losing or drawing that same position. Engines simply see far too deep and play far too accurately that a player like naka is merely an ant on Komodo's shirt.

Game 1 show the opposite, an IM (even a FM) would understand after 30 seconds that 41...Nxd3? is draw, Komodo doesn't understand that after a lot of time.

[pgn][Event "Live Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2016.01.06"]
[White "Hikaru"]
[Black "KomodoChess"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2787"]
[BlackElo "3200"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "45|15"]
[Termination "Game drawn by agreement"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Qe5+ Qe7 6.Qxe7+ Nxe7 7.Bf4 Bg7 8.c3 c5 9.dxc5 Nd7 10.Bd6 Nf5 11.Bb5 Nxd6 12.cxd6 a6 13.Ba4 O-O 14.Bb3 Nc5 15.Bxd5+ Kh8 16.Nf3 Nd3+ 17.Kf1 Bf5 18.Nbd2 Rad8 19.Bxb7 Nxb2 20.Be4 Be6 21.h4 Bxc3 22.Rc1 Na4 23.h5 g5 24.Nxg5 Bxd2 25.Nxe6 Bxc1 26.Nxf8 Rxf8 27.Bc6 Nc5 28.Rh3 Bd2 29.d7 Ba5 30.Re3 Rf6 31.Re8+ Kg7 32.Bf3 Nxd7 33.Re7+ Rf7 34.h6+ Kf8 35.Rxf7+ Kxf7 36.Be4 Bd2 37.Bxh7 Bxh6 38.g3 a5 39.f4 Nc5 40.Ke2 Bg7 41.Bd3 Nxd3 42.Kxd3 Bb2 43.Kc4 Bf6 44.Kb5 Bc3 45.a4 Kf6 46.Ka6 Kf5 47.Kb5 Bb4 48.Ka6 Ke4 49.Kb5 Be1 50.Ka6 Kf5 51.Kb5 Bc3 52.Kc4 Bb4 53.Kb5 Ke4 54.Ka6 1/2-1/2[/pgn][/quote]

[duncan]

Game 1 show the opposite, an IM (even a FM) would understand after 30 seconds that 41...Nxd3? is draw, Komodo doesn't understand that after a lot of time.

[pgn][Event "Live Chess"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2016.01.06"]
[White "Hikaru"]
[Black "KomodoChess"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2787"]
[BlackElo "3200"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "45|15"]
[Termination "Game drawn by agreement"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Qe5+ Qe7 6.Qxe7+ Nxe7 7.Bf4 Bg7 8.c3 c5 9.dxc5 Nd7 10.Bd6 Nf5 11.Bb5 Nxd6 12.cxd6 a6 13.Ba4 O-O 14.Bb3 Nc5 15.Bxd5+ Kh8 16.Nf3 Nd3+ 17.Kf1 Bf5 18.Nbd2 Rad8 19.Bxb7 Nxb2 20.Be4 Be6 21.h4 Bxc3 22.Rc1 Na4 23.h5 g5 24.Nxg5 Bxd2 25.Nxe6 Bxc1 26.Nxf8 Rxf8 27.Bc6 Nc5 28.Rh3 Bd2 29.d7 Ba5 30.Re3 Rf6 31.Re8+ Kg7 32.Bf3 Nxd7 33.Re7+ Rf7 34.h6+ Kf8 35.Rxf7+ Kxf7 36.Be4 Bd2 37.Bxh7 Bxh6 38.g3 a5 39.f4 Nc5 40.Ke2 Bg7 41.Bd3 Nxd3 42.Kxd3 Bb2 43.Kc4 Bf6 44.Kb5 Bc3 45.a4 Kf6 46.Ka6 Kf5 47.Kb5 Bb4 48.Ka6 Ke4 49.Kb5 Be1 50.Ka6 Kf5 51.Kb5 Bc3 52.Kc4 Bb4 53.Kb5 Ke4 54.Ka6 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

which is more frequent in end games, the computer is blind or the human is ?

[duncan]

I've heard that same crap from some of the noobs out there who know absolutely nothing about how strong computers really are. Engines today, particularly Stockfish and Komodo, play the endgame in ways in which a human being could not even dream of. The complicated endgame positions that I've seen Komodo win on my 28 core are out of this world. Literally the endgames are so complex that one or two slightly inferior moves made by the winning side could then find themselves losing or drawing that same position. Engines simply see far too deep and play far too accurately that a player like naka is merely an ant on Komodo's shirt.

From what I continue to see over and over again is Komodo's extraordinary ability to win positions in some of the most subtle, yet complex ways imaginable.

could you post a sample game ?

[APassionForCriminalJustic]

I've heard that same crap from some of the noobs out there who know absolutely nothing about how strong computers really are. Engines today, particularly Stockfish and Komodo, play the endgame in ways in which a human being could not even dream of. The complicated endgame positions that I've seen Komodo win on my 28 core are out of this world. Literally the endgames are so complex that one or two slightly inferior moves made by the winning side could then find themselves losing or drawing that same position. Engines simply see far too deep and play far too accurately that a player like naka is merely an ant on Komodo's shirt.

From what I continue to see over and over again is Komodo's extraordinary ability to win positions in some of the most subtle, yet complex ways imaginable.

could you post a sample game ?

I have a lot. I will go through a couple and post. Anyone who uses Komodo can see its extraordinary endgame abilities though.

[S.Taylor]

Just curious : how much money did Ikaru win for this 1.5/4 ?

Since chess.com is involved, I'm not at liberty to say what his base fee was, but he got a bonus of $200 per draw and $600 per win, so $600 bonus.

your coffers maybe somewhat depleted . super grandmasters are not cheap.
If I wanted to help you out and challenge komodo. if I win I get nothing, If komodo wins it gets $500.

my problem is I am weak at chess 1300-1350 elo. so for the odds to be 50-50 for komodo to win, it will need a certain handicap. what would it take to be an even match. komodo plays game in an attosecond. ?

-----

Even if a 1800 elo human player played top engine whilst engine gives odds of ALL its pieces, leaving only its king and pawns, the human can not afford to be too careless! If the human tried too hard to do something picturesque and do sacrifices because it wouldn't make much difference anyway, the human might lose. This is a shocking truth.

Add just a few pieces for the machine [a rook, bishop and knight?], and the human has to work full blast, even a highly rated player, (2200 and more) just to not lose. He should win, but only if he doesn't feel too overconfident.

[Uri Blass]

Just curious : how much money did Ikaru win for this 1.5/4 ?

Since chess.com is involved, I'm not at liberty to say what his base fee was, but he got a bonus of $200 per draw and $600 per win, so $600 bonus.

your coffers maybe somewhat depleted . super grandmasters are not cheap.
If I wanted to help you out and challenge komodo. if I win I get nothing, If komodo wins it gets $500.

my problem is I am weak at chess 1300-1350 elo. so for the odds to be 50-50 for komodo to win, it will need a certain handicap. what would it take to be an even match. komodo plays game in an attosecond. ?

-----

Even if a 1800 elo human player played top engine whilst engine gives odds of ALL its pieces, leaving only its king and pawns, the human can not afford to be too careless! If the human tried too hard to do something picturesque and do sacrifices because it wouldn't make much difference anyway, the human might lose. This is a shocking truth.

Add just a few pieces for the machine [a rook, bishop and knight?], and the human has to work full blast, even a highly rated player, (2200 and more) just to not lose. He should win, but only if he doesn't feel too overconfident.

I do not agree.
I believe that 1800 players can beat top engines easily when the top engines play without a queen maybe except blitz.

For sacrifices I think that there is no risk as long as the advantage after the sacrifice is big and more than a rook.

[thekingman]

Amazing and long awaited match, thanks so much for organizing this, Larry!

I, like many others, now find myself wondering "What next?" There are a few different possible directions to move from here. In general, I think Komodo has more or less conquered all the most interesting material handicaps, and these matches should move in a different direction. Here are a few of the possibilities as I see them, and a few thoughts on each:

1. A match entirely of f7 and move. Komodo has struggled to create chances in several of its recent handicap games at these odds, but has never lost and has won several. So I think it's fair to say Komodo has a reasonable handle on this handicap.

2. A larger material handicap, such as two pawns or knight for pawn. I am not a huge fan of these matches, as they do not much resemble real chess. The human simply needs to trade and not make any gross errors, and the endgame will be an easy win. Not to mention that many people do not recognize the magnitude of the difference between one pawn and two pawns, and would not be excited by this.

3. Initiative odds, such as the 4 moves given to Nakamura, or with black Kd5, 1..f6 2...Kf7, etc. These represent more dynamic handicaps, where the human, although starting at a big advantage, needs to accurately attack and cannot just simplify. It highlights both the attacking skills of the human and the defensive skills of Komodo, and any information gleaned in improving defense against strong attacks like this seems to be quite generally useful for Komodo. This is my favorite type of match played so far, and I would love to see more of it going forward.

4. Draw odds. A draw counts as a win for the human. A chance for Komodo to display and improve attacking skills against weaker opponents. A resourceful opponent may find ways to highlight any weaknesses (understanding/opening blocked positions, etc), which could again be generally useful for development. The games would greatly resemble normal chess, which would make it more enjoyable for spectators. Balance would be important, of course - I would start with giving the human the white pieces in every game, letting them consult any and all databases (including whatever opening ones they want, and endgame tablebases), and no opening book for the computer. I would LOVE to see this played, and I imagine many others would as well.

Edit: GM Kaufman surely needs no reminding of this, as he was involved, but Rybka won a match at draw odds 6-2 against GM Joel Benjamin in 2008 (http://chessok.com/?p=21973). Maybe with a stronger human opponent and database access it could still be balanced, but I suspect the human needs something more, like black forfeiting castling rights.

Actually I too would like to see such a match (draw odds plus White odds plus no (or just two or three move for variety) book for Komodo, and I like your idea of database access for the human as well. But forfeiting castling rights throws the humans' book advantage out the window, as Black will play strangely right from the start.

It certainly would make the computer play strangely, but it wouldn't throw the book advantage away. It would mean that the opening book is now just a lower bound on how advantageous a position is. If a line is good for white normally, it's guaranteed to be at least that good when black can't castle. Black playing strangely could also help with reducing the probability of the engine playing straight into a well known drawing line.

That said, I do understand the objection. I don't think removing castling rights is the ideal solution, but do think the human needs to be given something beyond the above ideas to make it competitive. Maybe he could be given takebacks. Say, up to 3 moves can be taken back after seeing Komodo's response, but a maximum of 1/move, and not after any further moves have been played. This, plus databases, plus no opening book, plus draw odds, plus the white pieces, just *might* be enough to make such a match competitive.