Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

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Jhoravi
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by Jhoravi » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:57 am

All odds suggestions are good except number two because it needs long introduction to the public.

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Laskos
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Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by Laskos » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:41 am

lkaufman wrote:
Laskos wrote:
Aser Huerga wrote:A very interesting handicap would be a simultaneous chess match, in which a modified Komodo capable of run several games at once in a given time, could fight against a given number of players. I bet this would be of mass appeal for any chess club.

I think this idea would be a great product promotion for the engine involved, and increase significantly engine sales with proper media campaign.

I encourage any top engine author to put it into practice, I predict great success all over the world.
Against 2400 players and below Komodo can play >1,000 games simultaneously, and the main problem is time allocation close to clock tick and overhead. Is this really interesting?

There is an issue with the funny and enjoyable to watch king on e5 handicap. It seems no larger than f7 pawn (practically lost) and castling rights handicap, more adapted against GM than FM or weaker.
I know that's what the engines say, it's just very hard to believe. I think most human masters would prefer White even giving knight odds with the Black king starting on e5. I don't know who is really right, but I'm sure that many people would be amazed to see Komodo beat even an FM at this handicap.
I don't think engines miscalculate here. Black ends up in positional and 1 pawn disadvantage, all in all just a bit larger than f7 pawn handicap. If human won't go for the pawn, he will have a three-four mover and castling advantage of similar value. I pitted at 10 min + 6 sec Komodo against Shredder 9.1, a 2850 FIDE level engine with these odds, and Komodo won +11 -1 =4. Against humans it's surely harder, but it would be funny if a GM loses against Komodo with king starting on e5.

lkaufman
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by lkaufman » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:10 am

Laskos wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Laskos wrote:
Aser Huerga wrote:A very interesting handicap would be a simultaneous chess match, in which a modified Komodo capable of run several games at once in a given time, could fight against a given number of players. I bet this would be of mass appeal for any chess club.

I think this idea would be a great product promotion for the engine involved, and increase significantly engine sales with proper media campaign.

I encourage any top engine author to put it into practice, I predict great success all over the world.
Against 2400 players and below Komodo can play >1,000 games simultaneously, and the main problem is time allocation close to clock tick and overhead. Is this really interesting?

There is an issue with the funny and enjoyable to watch king on e5 handicap. It seems no larger than f7 pawn (practically lost) and castling rights handicap, more adapted against GM than FM or weaker.
I know that's what the engines say, it's just very hard to believe. I think most human masters would prefer White even giving knight odds with the Black king starting on e5. I don't know who is really right, but I'm sure that many people would be amazed to see Komodo beat even an FM at this handicap.
I don't think engines miscalculate here. Black ends up in positional and 1 pawn disadvantage, all in all just a bit larger than f7 pawn handicap. If human won't go for the pawn, he will have a three-four mover and castling advantage of similar value. I pitted at 10 min + 6 sec Komodo against Shredder 9.1, a 2850 FIDE level engine with these odds, and Komodo won +11 -1 =4. Against humans it's surely harder, but it would be funny if a GM loses against Komodo with king starting on e5.
Wow, that's amazing! I'm sure that almost every GM would consider the Ke5 (or Kd5 doesn't seem to matter much) handicap to be riidiculous, they would probably be glad to make a side wager of a thousand dollars per game. Even the FMs I mentioned it to thought it would be an easy win for them. But if Shredder 9.1 got crushed receiving that handicap, they must be wrong. Winning with this sort of handicap should be harder for a human than for a computer, because he can't just follow some formula like "trade pieces" to win, he actually has to calculate variations. This has the potential to really amaze the chess world.
I think we'll start with an FM and work our way up if we keep winning.
Komodo rules!

JJJ
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by JJJ » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:23 am

[d]1nbqkbn1/pppppppp/8/8/3r2r1/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQ - 0 1

Try this if you want to :)

JJJ
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Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by JJJ » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:25 am

I promess it is a very nice handicap. It is tough to keep rook :)

Also, you can propose another challenge. Let say 3 human 2750 or more play together against Komodo.

They play for draw odd with white pieces. What do you say ? :)

Jesse Gersenson
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by Jesse Gersenson » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:30 am

Without prep, Komodo murdered me easily in 3' + 0", starting with Ke4. I tried 4 games and was worse by move 30 in every game. Black loses a pawn or two and his king side is smashed up but that's not nearly enough for me.

I tried 10 minuets vs 10 seconds:
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2015.09.12"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Jesse"]
[Black "Komodo 9.2 (optimized for internet)"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "3200"]
[WhiteElo "1800"]
[TimeControl "182+0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbq1bnr/pppppppp/8/8/4k3/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQ - 0 1"]

1. d4 e5 (Nc6) 2. Nc3+ Kf5 (Kf5 e4) 3. dxe5 d6 (Ke6 Qh5) 4. Nf3 Ke6 (Ke6
Qd5 Ke7 Qe4 Be6 Bg5 f6 exf6 gxf6 Nd4 Qc8 Nxe6 Qxe6 Qxb7 fxg5 Qxa8 Nd7 Nd5
Kf7 Nxc7 Qe5 O-O-O Bg7 Qd5 Qxd5 Rxd5 Nb6 Rxg5 Bh6 h4 Nf6 e3 Bxg5 hxg5 Ne4
f4) 5. e4 Ke7 (Ke7 Qe4) 6. Bg5+ f6 (Ke8 Ng5) 7. exf6+ gxf6 (Ke8 Ng5) 8.
Nd5+ Kf7 (Kf7 Bc4 Kg7 Be3 Nc6 Nf4 h5 Nh4 Qe8 Nf5 Kh7 Nxh5 d5 Bxd5 Nce7 Nxe7
Qxe7 Nf4 Qe8 O-O c6 Bb3 Nh6 Qd3 Qe5 Bc4) 9. Bc4 Kg7 (Kg7 Be3) 10. Qd4 Nc6
(Nc6) 11. Qc3 Bd7 (Nc6) 12. Bh4 h6 (Rc8 Nf4) 13. O-O-O Be7 (Qe8 O-O) 14.
Rhe1 Rc8 (Qe8 Nd4 Ne5 Nde6 Bxe6 Nxe6 Kh7 Nxc7 Qc6 Nxa8 Nxc4 b3 b5 bxc4 bxc4
f4 Kg7 Rhe1 Qxa8 Qxc4 Rh7 Re3 Kh8 Rg3 Qe8 f5 a5 Qd5 Qb8) 15. Nf4 Ne5 (Ne5
Ne6 Bxe6 Bxe6 Rh7 Nxe5 fxe5 Bxe7 Nxe7 f4 Kh8 fxe5 Rg7 exd6 cxd6 Bxc8 Qxc8
Rxd6 Qxc3 bxc3 Kh7 e5 Nc8 Rd8 Nb6 e6 Re7 Kd2 Kg6 Kd3 Kf6 g3 Rxe6 Rf8 Ke7
Re8 Kxe8 Rxe6 Kf7 Rxh6 Nd7) 16. Nxe5 fxe5 (Bxe6 Bxe6 Rh7 Nxe5 fxe5 Bxe7
Nxe7 f4 Kh8 fxe5 Rg7 exd6 cxd6 Bxc8 Qxc8 Qxc8 Nxc8 e5 dxe5 Rd8 Rg8 Rxg8
Kxg8 Rxe5 Kf7 Rd5 Kf6 Rd8 Nb6 Rb8 Nc4 Rxb7 a5 Ra7 Ne3 Ra6 Kg7 Rxa5 Nxg2 Ra7
Kg6 b4 Kf5 b5) 17. Ne6+ Bxe6 (Kh7 Qg3) 18. Bxe6 Bxh4 (Kf7 Bxe6 Kxe6 Qb3 Kd7
Qa4 Ke6 Qb3) 19. g3 Bf6 (Bf6) 20. Bxc8 Qxc8 (Bf6) 21. Rxd6 Ne7 (Ne7 Rdd1)
22. Rd3 Nf5 (Nc6 f4 Qe6 Qb3 Qxb3 axb3 Be7 Rd7 Rc8 b4 Kf6 b5 Nd8 c3 Ke6 Rd5
Nf7 Kc2 exf4 gxf4 Bd6 Rf1 Rg8 h3 c6 bxc6) 23. Rd5 Nd4 (Re8 Rd5) 24. Qa5 c6
(Nxc3 bxc3) 25. Rd6 Re8 (Re8 f4) 26. c3 Nb5 (Bd8 Qd2) 27. Rd3 Qe6 (Qe6 Qa4
Bg5 Kb1 Rf8 Rf1 Be7 f4 Nd6 f5 Qf6 Qd1 Rd8 Qg4 Kh8 b3 b5 h4 a5 h5 a4 Qg6
Qxg6 hxg6 Kg7 Rfd1) 28. Red1 Be7 (Bg5 Kb1) 29. a4 b6 (Rf8 Qa4 Rf7 Qb3 Qxb3
axb3 Kf6 Kd2 Ke6 Ke3 Bc5 Ke2 Be7 Rf1 Bg5 h4 Be7 f4 exf4 Rxf4 Bf6 Rf5 Rf8
Rh5 Nd6 Rxh6) 30. Qa6 Nd6 (Nd6 f3 Bg5 Kb1 Nc4 Qxa7 Re7 Rd7 Na3 Ka1 Nc2 Kb1
Na3) 31. Qxa7 Nxe4 (Bg5 Kb1 Nc4 Qxa7 Re7 Rd7 Na3 Ka1 Nc2 Kb1 Na3) 32. Rd7
Nxf2 (Nc5 Re3 Qf5 a5 Qxf2 Rxe5 Bg5 Rxg5 hxg5 Qc7 Kf8 Qxc6 Re2 Qh6 Kf7 Qh7
Kf6 Qh6 Ke7 Qg7 Ke6 Qg6 Ke7 Qxg5 Kf7 Qh5 Kg7 Qg4 Kh7 Qh5 Kg7) 33. R1d6 Qf7
(Qf7 Qxb6 Ne4 Rd1 Nc5 Rc7 e4 Qxc6 Rb8 Kb1 Rxb2 Kxb2 Qb3 Kc1 Qxc3 Kb1 Qb3
Kc1 Qc3) 34. Rxc6 Nd3+ (Ne4 Rd1 Nc5 Rc7 e4 Qxc6 Rb8 Kb1 Rxb2 Kxb2 Qb3 Kc1
Qxc3 Kb1 Qb3 Kc1 Qc3) 35. Kb1 Nc5 (Nc5) 36. Rdc7 e4 (Nc5) 37. Qxb6 Qf1+
(Qf1 Ka2 Qc4 Ka1 Qxa4 Kb1 Qd1 Ka2 Ra8 Ra7 Qd5 Kb1 Nd7 Rxd7 Qxd7 Qd4 Qxd4
cxd4 Kf7 d5 Bf6 Kc2 Ra2 Rb6 Ra5 Re6 Rc5 Kb3 Rxd5 Rxe4 Rd2 h3 Rxb2 Ka4 Ra2
Kb3 Rh2 h4 h5 Kc4 Rg2 Re3 Kg6 Kd3 Ra2) 38. Ka2 Qc4+ (Qc4 Kb1 Qd3 Ka2 Qd5
Kb1 Qd1 Ka2 Qxa4 Kb1 Qd1 Ka2 Ra8 Ra7 Qd5 Kb1 Nd7 Rxd7 Qxd7 Qd4 Qxd4 cxd4
Kf7 d5 Bf6 Kc2 Ra2 Rb6 Ra5 Re6 Rc5 Kb3 Rxd5 Rxe4 Rd2 h3 Rxb2 Ka4 Ra2 Kb3
Rh2 h4 Rb2 Ka4 Kg6 Rg4 Kf5 Rf4 Ke6 Rb4 Rxb4 Kxb4 Kf5) 39. b3 Qe2+ (Qd3 Ka2
Qd5 Kb1 Qd1 Ka2 Qxa4 Kb1 Qd1 Ka2 Ra8 Ra7 Qd5 Kb1 Nd7 Rxd7 Qxd7 Qd4 Qxd4
cxd4 Kf7 d5 Bf6 Kc2 Ra2 Kd2 Bd4 Kd1 Rxb2 Rc4 Bf6 Rxe4 Rxh2 Re3 Rh5 Rd3 Ke7
d6 Kd7 Ke2 Re5 Kf3 Re8 Kf4 Be5 Kg4 Bxd6) 40. Ka3 Nd7+ (Nd7) 41. b4 Nxb6
(Nxb6 Rxb6 Qxh2 Rd6 Qxg3 Rdd7 Qe5 Rc5 Qe6 Rcc7 e3 Rd1 Qe5 Rg1 Kh7 Rc4 e2
Re1 Qe3 Kb3 Qd2 Rxe2 Qxe2 a5 h5) {+7.93/17 0 White resigns} 0-1

[/pgn]

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Aser Huerga
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Location: Spain

Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by Aser Huerga » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:42 am

Laskos wrote:
Aser Huerga wrote:A very interesting handicap would be a simultaneous chess match, in which a modified Komodo capable of run several games at once in a given time, could fight against a given number of players. I bet this would be of mass appeal for any chess club.

I think this idea would be a great product promotion for the engine involved, and increase significantly engine sales with proper media campaign.

I encourage any top engine author to put it into practice, I predict great success all over the world.
Against 2400 players and below Komodo can play >1,000 games simultaneously, and the main problem is time allocation close to clock tick and overhead. Is this really interesting?
But Komodo could be handicaped as well, the same way as in the titled players matches, and play in ordinary laptop to adecuate Elo to the players.
My point is that when a good chess tournament comes to my town, I'd like to play a simultaneus against, let's say, Magnus Carlsen, but I'd like to play a simultaneus against Komodo too, although in both cases my probably of win or even draw the game is remote. I would like to see the titled players matches but I'd like to take part of the show too.

lkaufman
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Location: Maryland USA
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Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by lkaufman » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:12 pm

JJJ wrote:I promess it is a very nice handicap. It is tough to keep rook :)

Also, you can propose another challenge. Let say 3 human 2750 or more play together against Komodo.

They play for draw odd with white pieces. What do you say ? :)
The idea in these handicap matches is to make the games as similar to normal chess as we can while equalizing the chances. Putting the rooks in the middle or anything like that will give White some free moves and perhaps win the echange, but isn't it better to just make such handicaps explicit at the start?
As for 3 GMs consulting, aside from the prohibitive cost, it's not very clear that 3 2750 players consulting will play much better than one by himself.
Komodo rules!

JJJ
Posts: 1298
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by JJJ » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:17 pm

lkaufman wrote:
The idea in these handicap matches is to make the games as similar to normal chess as we can while equalizing the chances. Putting the rooks in the middle or anything like that will give White some free moves and perhaps win the echange, but isn't it better to just make such handicaps explicit at the start?
I don't know, I was just starting proposing fun handicap. But it is maybe too soon to propose this weird handicap. I think the king in the middle can be really appreciate here, because you will see Komodo defend at the begining :)

JJJ
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Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:47 am

Re: Four wild handicaps for FM level player.

Post by JJJ » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:19 pm

One more fun handicap
[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RRBQKBRR w KQkq - 0 1

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