The Champions 2012 8CPU

S.Taylor · Post by **S.Taylor** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:15 am

Every time a top program loses a game, i feel like there must be some weakness due to which it lost, but i might be wrong.
Perhaps chess is NOT absolute? perhaps it doesn't require any bad move or weak move, for the opponent to beat it?

A draw doesn't bother me because i habitually think that it doesn't prove a weakness in the strongest program.

But who knows? Maybe perfect chess, if and when we get there, might have losses playing against itself. (even 5 losses in a row?)

S.Taylor · Post by **S.Taylor** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:18 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Round 5 PGN - http://kirill-kryukov.com/chess/discuss ... p?id=28151

If you install TLCV (Tom's Live Chess Viewer) on your computer, you can watch the games live move by move. You'll also be able to chat to others following the tournament in the chatroom there.
http://home.pacific.net.au/~tommyinoz/client.zip
Host - GrahamCCRL.dyndns.org Port - 16083

There is also a live broadcast in Playchess.

Never yet saw it working and moves being played, on my computer.
It DOES come up with the added details, but no moves being played, nor archives of played games.

Graham Banks · Post by **Graham Banks** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:18 am

S.Taylor wrote:Every time a top program loses a game, i feel like there must be some weakness due to which it lost, but i might be wrong.
Perhaps chess is NOT absolute? perhaps it doesn't require any bad move or weak move, for the opponent to beat it?

A draw doesn't bother me because i habitually think that it doesn't prove a weakness in the strongest program.

But who knows? Maybe perfect chess, if and when we get there, might have losses playing against itself. (even 5 losses in a row?)

We're not at the stage where the top engine is unbeatable, so the occasional loss is to be expected.

S.Taylor · Post by **S.Taylor** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:22 am

Graham Banks wrote:
S.Taylor wrote:Every time a top program loses a game, i feel like there must be some weakness due to which it lost, but i might be wrong.
Perhaps chess is NOT absolute? perhaps it doesn't require any bad move or weak move, for the opponent to beat it?

A draw doesn't bother me because i habitually think that it doesn't prove a weakness in the strongest program.

But who knows? Maybe perfect chess, if and when we get there, might have losses playing against itself. (even 5 losses in a row?)
We're not at the stage where the top engine is unbeatable, so the occasional loss is to be expected.

Yes, but it would be more comforting if it would draw rather than lose whole points.

beram · Post by **beram** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:40 am

Graham Banks wrote:
S.Taylor wrote:Every time a top program loses a game, i feel like there must be some weakness due to which it lost, but i might be wrong.
Perhaps chess is NOT absolute? perhaps it doesn't require any bad move or weak move, for the opponent to beat it?

A draw doesn't bother me because i habitually think that it doesn't prove a weakness in the strongest program.

But who knows? Maybe perfect chess, if and when we get there, might have losses playing against itself. (even 5 losses in a row?)
We're not at the stage where the top engine is unbeatable, so the occasional loss is to be expected.

Nice pawn sacrifice d5! making the bishop on the long diagonal a killer, decided the game between Sting and Rybka
There are engines who don't find that move. Critter, Stockfish and Houdini find this instantly.

[D] r5r1/5q1k/2p1p1pb/1pP2p2/3PpP1P/pPB1P1R1/P1K3Q1/6R1 w - - 0 89

S.Taylor · Post by **S.Taylor** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:19 pm

beram wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
S.Taylor wrote:Every time a top program loses a game, i feel like there must be some weakness due to which it lost, but i might be wrong.
Perhaps chess is NOT absolute? perhaps it doesn't require any bad move or weak move, for the opponent to beat it?

A draw doesn't bother me because i habitually think that it doesn't prove a weakness in the strongest program.

But who knows? Maybe perfect chess, if and when we get there, might have losses playing against itself. (even 5 losses in a row?)
We're not at the stage where the top engine is unbeatable, so the occasional loss is to be expected.
Nice pawn sacrifice d5! making the bishop on the long diagonal a killer, decided the game between Sting and Rybka
There are engines who don't find that move. Critter, Stockfish and Houdini find this instantly.

[D] r5r1/5q1k/2p1p1pb/1pP2p2/3PpP1P/pPB1P1R1/P1K3Q1/6R1 w - - 0 89

So would any human, imho.
But wow, Sting must be a great engine to have got into that position in the first place (i see this from the diagram, even without following the game)

(I would also think that Rybka should have stopped sting from getting such a position).

lech · Post by **lech** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:54 pm

S.Taylor wrote:(I would also think that Rybka should have stopped sting from getting such a position).

Engines can't imagine the future and don't have a knowledge. The chessplayer knows that the sacrifice (d5!) should lead to win many moves earler, but an engine needs many depths. In such way Houdini can lose games too. It happens. The procent of successful attacks of Houdini is very very high, though,
Too high!

In many engine games the result is based on a lucky. Sometimes it is impossible to reverse the game result.

S.Taylor · Post by **S.Taylor** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:10 pm

lech wrote:
S.Taylor wrote:(I would also think that Rybka should have stopped sting from getting such a position).
Engines can't imagine the future and don't have a knowledge. The chessplayer knows that the sacrifice (d5!) should lead to win many moves earler, but an engine needs many depths. In such way Houdini can lose games too. It happens. The procent of successful attacks of Houdini is very very high, though,
Too high!
In many engine games the result is based on a lucky. Sometimes it is impossible to reverse the game result.

I was saying it was not only luck, in this position, and i don't think it was luck, to have got into this position.

lech · Post by **lech** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:33 pm

S.Taylor wrote:
lech wrote:
S.Taylor wrote:(I would also think that Rybka should have stopped sting from getting such a position).
Engines can't imagine the future and don't have a knowledge. The chessplayer knows that the sacrifice (d5!) should lead to win many moves earler, but an engine needs many depths. In such way Houdini can lose games too. It happens. The procent of successful attacks of Houdini is very very high, though,
Too high!
In many engine games the result is based on a lucky. Sometimes it is impossible to reverse the game result.
I was saying it was not only luck, in this position, and i don't think it was luck, to have got into this position.

Happiness is an important part of our existence. Chess is like our life. Personally, I do not experience this condition. Maybe Sting has it a little more. Why not?

velmarin · Post by **velmarin** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:31 pm

Last Tournament Ponziani 8 cpu

Starting position out of the book.
Bouquet and Houdini_3 see score 0.00
Sting, go score 1.53 and perfect play and win.
Bouquet is blind.
[d]r1bqkb1r/ppp3Pp/3p4/7n/3n4/2P5/PP3PPP/RNB1KB1R w KQkq - 0 10

Code: Select all

&#91;Event "Ponziani Swiss 8CPU"&#93;
&#91;Site "ChessGUI"&#93;
&#91;Date "2012.12.11"&#93;
&#91;Round "1.1"&#93;
&#91;White "Sting SF 2 64-bit 8CPU"&#93;
&#91;Black "Bouquet 1.6 64-bit 8CPU"&#93;
&#91;Result "1-0"&#93;
&#91;ECO "C44"&#93;
&#91;PlyCount "106"&#93;
&#91;EventDate "2012.??.??"&#93;
&#91;TimeControl "40/1740&#58;40/1740&#58;40/1740"&#93;

&#123;Unknown Hardware&#125; 1. e4 &#123;&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; e5 &#123;
&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; 2. Nf3 &#123;&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; Nc6 &#123;
&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; 3. c3 &#123;&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; f5 &#123;
&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; 4. d4 &#123;&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; d6 &#123;
&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; 5. exf5 &#123;&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; exd4 &#123;
&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; 6. Nxd4 &#123;&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; Nxd4 &#123;
&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; 7. Qh5+ &#123;&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; g6 &#123;
&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; 8. fxg6 &#123;&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; Nf6 &#123;
&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; 9. g7+ &#123;&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; Nxh5 &#123;
&#91;%eval 0,1&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; 10. gxh8=Q &#123;&#91;%eval 153,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;45&#93;&#125; Nc2+ &#123;
&#40;Nc2&#41; &#91;%eval -28,17&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;12&#93;&#125; 11. Kd1 &#123;
&#40;Kd1&#41; &#91;%eval 181,26&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;20&#93;&#125; Nxa1 &#123;&#40;Nxa1&#41; &#91;%eval -28,16&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;
&#125; 12. Qxh7 &#123;&#40;Qxh7&#41; &#91;%eval 189,26&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;09&#93;&#125; Nf6 &#123;
&#40;Ng7&#41; &#91;%eval -67,21&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;23&#93;&#125; 13. Qg6+ &#123;
&#40;Qg6&#41; &#91;%eval 197,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;40&#93;&#125; Kd7 &#123;&#40;Kd7&#41; &#91;%eval -67,20&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125;
14. Bd3 &#123;&#40;b3&#41; &#91;%eval 197,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;44&#93;&#125; Be7 &#123;
&#40;Be7&#41; &#91;%eval -54,20&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;50&#93;&#125; 15. Na3 &#123;
&#40;Bf5&#41; &#91;%eval 185,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;58&#93;&#125; a6 &#123;&#40;Qe8&#41; &#91;%eval -139,20&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;02&#58;00&#93;&#125;
16. Re1 &#123;&#40;Bg5&#41; &#91;%eval 254,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;25&#93;&#125; Qf8 &#123;
&#40;Qe8&#41; &#91;%eval -155,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;48&#93;&#125; 17. f3 &#123;
&#40;Bh6&#41; &#91;%eval 262,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;32&#93;&#125; Kd8 &#123;&#40;Kd8&#41; &#91;%eval -176,20&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;04&#93;&#125;
18. Bg5 &#123;&#40;Bh6&#41; &#91;%eval 286,24&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;04&#93;&#125; Bd7 &#123;
&#40;Bd7&#41; &#91;%eval -213,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;54&#93;&#125; 19. Kc1 &#123;
&#40;Kc1&#41; &#91;%eval 311,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;42&#93;&#125; a5 &#123;&#40;c5&#41; &#91;%eval -209,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;53&#93;&#125;
20. Kb1 &#123;&#40;Kb1&#41; &#91;%eval 298,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;49&#93;&#125; a4 &#123;
&#40;a4&#41; &#91;%eval -216,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;11&#93;&#125; 21. Kxa1 &#123;
&#40;Kxa1&#41; &#91;%eval 303,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;51&#93;&#125; Ra5 &#123;&#40;Ra5&#41; &#91;%eval -216,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;12&#93;
&#125; 22. Bh6 &#123;&#40;Bh6&#41; &#91;%eval 307,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;46&#93;&#125; Qg8 &#123;
&#40;Qg8&#41; &#91;%eval -213,24&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;44&#93;&#125; 23. Qxg8+ &#123;
&#40;Qxg8&#41; &#91;%eval 298,26&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;01&#93;&#125; Nxg8 &#123;
&#40;Nxg8&#41; &#91;%eval -213,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125; 24. Bf4 &#123;
&#40;Bf4&#41; &#91;%eval 307,26&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;56&#93;&#125; Bf6 &#123;&#40;Rh5&#41; &#91;%eval -212,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;15&#93;&#125;
25. g4 &#123;&#40;Kb1&#41; &#91;%eval 327,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;00&#93;&#125; Bh4 &#123;
&#40;Bh4&#41; &#91;%eval -219,24&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;06&#93;&#125; 26. Rd1 &#123;
&#40;Rd1&#41; &#91;%eval 311,26&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;18&#93;&#125; Bc6 &#123;&#40;Ne7&#41; &#91;%eval -224,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;21&#93;&#125;
27. Rf1 &#123;&#40;Rf1&#41; &#91;%eval 311,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;44&#93;&#125; Ke7 &#123;
&#40;Ne7&#41; &#91;%eval -221,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;16&#93;&#125; 28. Nc2 &#123;
&#40;Nc2&#41; &#91;%eval 339,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;51&#93;&#125; Bd7 &#123;&#40;Bd7&#41; &#91;%eval -228,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;23&#93;&#125;
29. Nd4 &#123;&#40;Nd4&#41; &#91;%eval 339,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;02&#58;10&#93;&#125; Kf8 &#123;
&#40;Kf8&#41; &#91;%eval -231,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;23&#93;&#125; 30. Kb1 &#123;
&#40;Bc4&#41; &#91;%eval 355,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;33&#93;&#125; Ne7 &#123;&#40;Ne7&#41; &#91;%eval -239,24&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;45&#93;&#125;
31. c4 &#123;&#40;c4&#41; &#91;%eval 355,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;12&#93;&#125; Ra8 &#123;
&#40;Ra8&#41; &#91;%eval -242,24&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;18&#93;&#125; 32. Nb5 &#123;
&#40;Nb5&#41; &#91;%eval 363,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;33&#93;&#125; Rc8 &#123;&#40;Bxb5&#41; &#91;%eval -242,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;15&#93;
&#125; 33. Rc1 &#123;&#40;c5&#41; &#91;%eval 351,24&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;52&#93;&#125; Kf7 &#123;
&#40;Kg7&#41; &#91;%eval -231,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;26&#93;&#125; 34. Bg3 &#123;
&#40;Be4&#41; &#91;%eval 375,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;20&#93;&#125; Bxg3 &#123;
&#40;Bxg3&#41; &#91;%eval -244,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;07&#93;&#125; 35. hxg3 &#123;
&#40;hxg3&#41; &#91;%eval 367,19&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;01&#93;&#125; d5 &#123;&#40;Bxb5&#41; &#91;%eval -247,24&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;43&#93;
&#125; 36. Rh1 &#123;&#40;Rh1&#41; &#91;%eval 379,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;20&#93;&#125; Kg8 &#123;
&#40;Kg8&#41; &#91;%eval -253,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;50&#93;&#125; 37. Nc3 &#123;
&#40;Nc3&#41; &#91;%eval 416,27&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;03&#93;&#125; dxc4 &#123;
&#40;dxc4&#41; &#91;%eval -264,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;17&#93;&#125; 38. Bxc4+ &#123;
&#40;Bxc4&#41; &#91;%eval 424,26&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;23&#93;&#125; Kg7 &#123;&#40;Kg7&#41; &#91;%eval -266,26&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;13&#93;
&#125; 39. Bd3 &#123;&#40;Bd3&#41; &#91;%eval 432,24&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;16&#93;&#125; Re8 &#123;
&#40;Re8&#41; &#91;%eval -266,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;10&#93;&#125; 40. Rh7+ &#123;
&#40;Rh7&#41; &#91;%eval 420,26&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;28&#93;&#125; Kg8 &#123;&#40;Kg8&#41; &#91;%eval -272,24&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;00&#93;&#125;
41. Kc1 &#123;&#40;g5&#41; &#91;%eval 448,27&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;22&#93;&#125; Be6 &#123;
&#40;Be6&#41; &#91;%eval -287,24&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;35&#93;&#125; 42. g5 &#123;
&#40;g5&#41; &#91;%eval 432,27&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;02&#58;37&#93;&#125; Kf8 &#123;&#40;a3&#41; &#91;%eval -290,24&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;02&#58;08&#93;&#125;
43. a3 &#123;&#40;Rh6&#41; &#91;%eval 476,26&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;57&#93;&#125; Ra8 &#123;
&#40;Bg8&#41; &#91;%eval -301,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;34&#93;&#125; 44. Rh8+ &#123;
&#40;Bc2&#41; &#91;%eval 505,28&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;18&#93;&#125; Bg8 &#123;&#40;Bg8&#41; &#91;%eval -333,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;28&#93;&#125;
45. f4 &#123;&#40;f4&#41; &#91;%eval 488,28&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;04&#93;&#125; Ra5 &#123;
&#40;Kg7&#41; &#91;%eval -344,25&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;02&#58;25&#93;&#125; 46. g4 &#123;
&#40;Kd2&#41; &#91;%eval 577,27&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;11&#93;&#125; Kg7 &#123;&#40;Kg7&#41; &#91;%eval -369,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;15&#93;&#125;
47. Rh6 &#123;&#40;Rh6&#41; &#91;%eval 606,27&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;49&#93;&#125; Nc6 &#123;
&#40;Kf8&#41; &#91;%eval -376,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;53&#93;&#125; 48. Kd2 &#123;
&#40;Be4&#41; &#91;%eval 654,26&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;59&#93;&#125; Ra8 &#123;&#40;Nb8&#41; &#91;%eval -427,21&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;10&#93;&#125;
49. Ke3 &#123;&#40;Ke3&#41; &#91;%eval 686,27&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;14&#93;&#125; Ra5 &#123;
&#40;Kf8&#41; &#91;%eval -441,22&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;51&#93;&#125; 50. Nb5 &#123;
&#40;Be4&#41; &#91;%eval 755,27&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;41&#93;&#125; Kf8 &#123;&#40;Kf8&#41; &#91;%eval -592,23&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;04&#58;27&#93;&#125;
51. Nxc7 &#123;&#40;Nxc7&#41; &#91;%eval 787,27&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;48&#93;&#125; Rc5 &#123;
&#40;Rc5&#41; &#91;%eval -486,18&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;07&#93;&#125; 52. Ne6+ &#123;
&#40;Re6&#41; &#91;%eval 852,28&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;44&#93;&#125; Bxe6 &#123;
&#40;Bxe6&#41; &#91;%eval -596,20&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;31&#93;&#125; 53. Rxe6 &#123;
&#40;Rxe6&#41; &#91;%eval 872,26&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;00&#58;04&#93;&#125; Rc1 &#123;&#40;Rc1&#41; &#91;%eval -623,21&#93; &#91;%emt 0&#58;01&#58;01&#93;
&#125; 1-0

The Champions 2012 8CPU

Re: Round 5

Re: Round 5

Re: Round 5

Re: Round 5

Re: Round 5

Re: Round 5

Re: Round 5

Re: Round 5

Re: Round 5

Re: Round 5