GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 41-55)

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Terry McCracken
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Re: GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 41-O

Post by Terry McCracken » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:16 am

lkaufman wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Once again Connie blocks + by advancing her P with...

52..f5

[d] 8/p1pQ4/1p4k1/2r2pn1/8/3B4/P7/6K1 w - - 0 53

Steve
I play 53.Kf2, giving the option of going to g3 or e3. Now Black could consider the maneuver ...N-e4-d6 to centralize the knight, but Connie won't play this as I could win a pawn by taking on e4 and checking on e6, although I wouldn't do this as the resultant ending looks drawn.
If the f-pawn falls and if you remove both the a7 pawn and the a2 pawn you have a tablebase win. I don't think the Connie can draw, regardless.

[d]8/2p3k1/1p6/2r5/4Q3/8/5K2/8 b - - 0 56

White to Move Win in 37 Moves

Black to move Loss in 48 Moves
Terry McCracken

Steve B
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Re: GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 41-O

Post by Steve B » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:42 am

lkaufman wrote: I play 53.Kf2, giving the option of going to g3 or e3. Now Black could consider the maneuver ...N-e4-d6 to centralize the knight, but Connie won't play this as I could win a pawn by taking on e4 and checking on e6, although I wouldn't do this as the resultant ending looks drawn.
Connie continues to seek the safety of the dark squares with..
53..Kf6

[d] 8/p1pQ4/1p3k2/2r2pn1/8/3B4/P4K2/8 w - - 0 54

The Queen Of Darkness Sends Her Regards
Steve

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Don
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Re: GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 41-O

Post by Don » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:41 am

Terry McCracken wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Once again Connie blocks + by advancing her P with...

52..f5

[d] 8/p1pQ4/1p4k1/2r2pn1/8/3B4/P7/6K1 w - - 0 53

Steve
I play 53.Kf2, giving the option of going to g3 or e3. Now Black could consider the maneuver ...N-e4-d6 to centralize the knight, but Connie won't play this as I could win a pawn by taking on e4 and checking on e6, although I wouldn't do this as the resultant ending looks drawn.
If the f-pawn falls and if you remove both the a7 pawn and the a2 pawn you have a tablebase win. I don't think the Connie can draw, regardless.
But those kinds of wins are very difficult.

[d]8/2p3k1/1p6/2r5/4Q3/8/5K2/8 b - - 0 56

White to Move Win in 37 Moves

Black to move Loss in 48 Moves

bob
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Re: GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 41-O

Post by bob » Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:45 pm

Don wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Once again Connie blocks + by advancing her P with...

52..f5

[d] 8/p1pQ4/1p4k1/2r2pn1/8/3B4/P7/6K1 w - - 0 53

Steve
I play 53.Kf2, giving the option of going to g3 or e3. Now Black could consider the maneuver ...N-e4-d6 to centralize the knight, but Connie won't play this as I could win a pawn by taking on e4 and checking on e6, although I wouldn't do this as the resultant ending looks drawn.
If the f-pawn falls and if you remove both the a7 pawn and the a2 pawn you have a tablebase win. I don't think the Connie can draw, regardless.
But those kinds of wins are very difficult.

[d]8/2p3k1/1p6/2r5/4Q3/8/5K2/8 b - - 0 56

White to Move Win in 37 Moves

Black to move Loss in 48 Moves
How does white win that? White king can not cross 4th rank with that rook fortress holding it out. No way to win the c-pawn with the rook supporting it. I don't see how to force the black king out with just a queen??? Is this really a tablebase win??

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Don
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Re: GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 41-O

Post by Don » Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:58 pm

bob wrote:
Don wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Once again Connie blocks + by advancing her P with...

52..f5

[d] 8/p1pQ4/1p4k1/2r2pn1/8/3B4/P7/6K1 w - - 0 53

Steve
I play 53.Kf2, giving the option of going to g3 or e3. Now Black could consider the maneuver ...N-e4-d6 to centralize the knight, but Connie won't play this as I could win a pawn by taking on e4 and checking on e6, although I wouldn't do this as the resultant ending looks drawn.
If the f-pawn falls and if you remove both the a7 pawn and the a2 pawn you have a tablebase win. I don't think the Connie can draw, regardless.
But those kinds of wins are very difficult.

[d]8/2p3k1/1p6/2r5/4Q3/8/5K2/8 b - - 0 56

White to Move Win in 37 Moves

Black to move Loss in 48 Moves
How does white win that? White king can not cross 4th rank with that rook fortress holding it out. No way to win the c-pawn with the rook supporting it. I don't see how to force the black king out with just a queen??? Is this really a tablebase win??
This could still be a win. The plan would be to "pseudo stalemate" the king. In other words set things up so that the king has no legal moves and the rook or a pawn is forced to move - breaking the fortress or letting the king in.

I don't really know whether this is an actual win or not, but if it's been checked via database then it must be - and that would be the only possible way to proceed anyway.

Steve B
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Re: GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 41-O

Post by Steve B » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:19 pm

bob wrote:
Don wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Once again Connie blocks + by advancing her P with...

52..f5

[d] 8/p1pQ4/1p4k1/2r2pn1/8/3B4/P7/6K1 w - - 0 53

Steve
I play 53.Kf2, giving the option of going to g3 or e3. Now Black could consider the maneuver ...N-e4-d6 to centralize the knight, but Connie won't play this as I could win a pawn by taking on e4 and checking on e6, although I wouldn't do this as the resultant ending looks drawn.
If the f-pawn falls and if you remove both the a7 pawn and the a2 pawn you have a tablebase win. I don't think the Connie can draw, regardless.
But those kinds of wins are very difficult.

[d]8/2p3k1/1p6/2r5/4Q3/8/5K2/8 b - - 0 56

White to Move Win in 37 Moves

Black to move Loss in 48 Moves
How does white win that? White king can not cross 4th rank with that rook fortress holding it out. No way to win the c-pawn with the rook supporting it. I don't see how to force the black king out with just a queen??? Is this really a tablebase win??
According to the Namilov online site it is:
http://www.k4it.de/index.php?topic=egtb&lang=en

if its blacks move it actually takes 48 moves
just 2 moves shy of a draw by the 50 move rule
of course i doubt the 50 move rule would even be close to invocation here because i imagine there must be a capture or pawn move somewhere deep along the winning line which resets the 50 move count
Still..i seriously doubt a GM playing OTB with his clock running would win this
even just Q v R with no pawns is not such a simple win when playing OTB ..
just in this months USCF "Chess Life"magazine there was an article by Soltis talking about "theoretical draws"

quoting from Soltis's article ...

"Once again we can turn to Grandpa Reuben. In general, Q-versus-R is a win, Fine says, but this time he steps into the real world and adds that “the process is rather complicated.” It’s so complex that even though today’s computers can show you that this position is a forced mate in about 20-plus moves, the win doesn’t become obvious until the very end

in the same article GM Boris Gelfand is quoted as saying this about the theoretical draw of R+4P v R+3P...
(Gelfand had the R+3p's and just lost a game to Topalov who had the R+4p's)

“The smart guys, with a computer at their side, easily found the draw,” Gelfand said. “But at the board they would lose 100 times out of 100.”


Steve
Last edited by Steve B on Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Terry McCracken
Posts: 16105
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:16 am
Location: Canada

Re: GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 41-O

Post by Terry McCracken » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:46 pm

Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote: I play 53.Kf2, giving the option of going to g3 or e3. Now Black could consider the maneuver ...N-e4-d6 to centralize the knight, but Connie won't play this as I could win a pawn by taking on e4 and checking on e6, although I wouldn't do this as the resultant ending looks drawn.
Connie continues to seek the safety of the dark squares with..
53..Kf6

[d] 8/p1pQ4/1p3k2/2r2pn1/8/3B4/P4K2/8 w - - 0 54

The Queen Of Darkness Sends Her Regards
Steve
I anticipate 53. Qd8+..Kg6 54. Qe7! and Black is in real trouble.
Terry McCracken

bob
Posts: 20918
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 41-O

Post by bob » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:03 pm

Don wrote:
bob wrote:
Don wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Once again Connie blocks + by advancing her P with...

52..f5

[d] 8/p1pQ4/1p4k1/2r2pn1/8/3B4/P7/6K1 w - - 0 53

Steve
I play 53.Kf2, giving the option of going to g3 or e3. Now Black could consider the maneuver ...N-e4-d6 to centralize the knight, but Connie won't play this as I could win a pawn by taking on e4 and checking on e6, although I wouldn't do this as the resultant ending looks drawn.
If the f-pawn falls and if you remove both the a7 pawn and the a2 pawn you have a tablebase win. I don't think the Connie can draw, regardless.
But those kinds of wins are very difficult.

[d]8/2p3k1/1p6/2r5/4Q3/8/5K2/8 b - - 0 56

White to Move Win in 37 Moves

Black to move Loss in 48 Moves
How does white win that? White king can not cross 4th rank with that rook fortress holding it out. No way to win the c-pawn with the rook supporting it. I don't see how to force the black king out with just a queen??? Is this really a tablebase win??
This could still be a win. The plan would be to "pseudo stalemate" the king. In other words set things up so that the king has no legal moves and the rook or a pawn is forced to move - breaking the fortress or letting the king in.

I don't really know whether this is an actual win or not, but if it's been checked via database then it must be - and that would be the only possible way to proceed anyway.
After I looked at it a bit, you are probably right. White can force the king to the corner and zug him. If the king was on the other side of the board it is not so easy...

Terry McCracken
Posts: 16105
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:16 am
Location: Canada

Re: GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 41-O

Post by Terry McCracken » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:23 pm

bob wrote:
Don wrote:
bob wrote:
Don wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Once again Connie blocks + by advancing her P with...

52..f5

[d] 8/p1pQ4/1p4k1/2r2pn1/8/3B4/P7/6K1 w - - 0 53

Steve
I play 53.Kf2, giving the option of going to g3 or e3. Now Black could consider the maneuver ...N-e4-d6 to centralize the knight, but Connie won't play this as I could win a pawn by taking on e4 and checking on e6, although I wouldn't do this as the resultant ending looks drawn.
If the f-pawn falls and if you remove both the a7 pawn and the a2 pawn you have a tablebase win. I don't think the Connie can draw, regardless.
But those kinds of wins are very difficult.

[d]8/2p3k1/1p6/2r5/4Q3/8/5K2/8 b - - 0 56

White to Move Win in 37 Moves

Black to move Loss in 48 Moves
How does white win that? White king can not cross 4th rank with that rook fortress holding it out. No way to win the c-pawn with the rook supporting it. I don't see how to force the black king out with just a queen??? Is this really a tablebase win??
This could still be a win. The plan would be to "pseudo stalemate" the king. In other words set things up so that the king has no legal moves and the rook or a pawn is forced to move - breaking the fortress or letting the king in.

I don't really know whether this is an actual win or not, but if it's been checked via database then it must be - and that would be the only possible way to proceed anyway.
After I looked at it a bit, you are probably right. White can force the king to the corner and zug him. If the king was on the other side of the board it is not so easy...
Well I know I'm right and it's technique based on Zugzwang and yes it's due to King position etc., but as Don said it's hard in practise but there's no rush here. Anyway the Connie will play worse and Larry will soon be picking off pawns.

I only checked a tablebase to verify my claim. After decades of play I felt it won.
Terry McCracken

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Don
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Re: GM Kaufman v.Novag Constellation 3.6 QR Odds (Moves 41-O

Post by Don » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:27 pm

Terry McCracken wrote:
bob wrote:
Don wrote:
bob wrote:
Don wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Steve B wrote:
lkaufman wrote:
Once again Connie blocks + by advancing her P with...

52..f5

[d] 8/p1pQ4/1p4k1/2r2pn1/8/3B4/P7/6K1 w - - 0 53

Steve
I play 53.Kf2, giving the option of going to g3 or e3. Now Black could consider the maneuver ...N-e4-d6 to centralize the knight, but Connie won't play this as I could win a pawn by taking on e4 and checking on e6, although I wouldn't do this as the resultant ending looks drawn.
If the f-pawn falls and if you remove both the a7 pawn and the a2 pawn you have a tablebase win. I don't think the Connie can draw, regardless.
But those kinds of wins are very difficult.

[d]8/2p3k1/1p6/2r5/4Q3/8/5K2/8 b - - 0 56

White to Move Win in 37 Moves

Black to move Loss in 48 Moves
How does white win that? White king can not cross 4th rank with that rook fortress holding it out. No way to win the c-pawn with the rook supporting it. I don't see how to force the black king out with just a queen??? Is this really a tablebase win??
This could still be a win. The plan would be to "pseudo stalemate" the king. In other words set things up so that the king has no legal moves and the rook or a pawn is forced to move - breaking the fortress or letting the king in.

I don't really know whether this is an actual win or not, but if it's been checked via database then it must be - and that would be the only possible way to proceed anyway.
After I looked at it a bit, you are probably right. White can force the king to the corner and zug him. If the king was on the other side of the board it is not so easy...
Well I know I'm right and it's technique based on Zugzwang and yes it's due to King position etc., but as Don said it's hard in practise but there's no rush here. Anyway the Connie will play worse and Larry will soon be picking off pawns.
Bob was not responding to you. Bob was responding to me he said, "you are probably right."

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