will Tcec allow Stockfish with a Leela net to play?

[jhellis3]

Well, you could really unburden yourself by just probing Stockfish...

Or by relying on a NN for eval. Real programmers program and that means hand coded eval to the moon.

And I hope nobody is using null move pruning or alpha beta or min max or MCTS or LMR or singular extensions or LMP.... Original ideas only please.

[kranium]

Have you ever actually tried a match between Stockfish with EGTB vs. without EGTB? With 6 man EGTB, one can expect less than 10 elo. For comparison, let's try Stockfish with an evaluation function vs. without an evaluation function... oh wait, that would be stupid. They're not remotely comparable and you know it.

You're just arguing in bad faith at this point so I don't see any reason to continue this discussion.

Correct on all accounts: http://chess.grantnet.us/test/11234/

And if anyone thinks a few hundred TB hits in the early game has any impact on the search tree ... well you don't have great intuition.

You should be getting at least 15-18, especially at longer TCs

CalPoly did a thorough study on this:
https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/ ... text=cpesp

Basically their results were as follows:

"Tablebase use has a significant performance benefit across all tested levels of play when using a short time control.
This gain can be expected to be approximately +20 Elo points for engines similar to those tested.

In longer games, Tablebase use tends to help stronger engines more. Stockfish saw an 18-point gain on increased time settings, whereas Spike and N2 had changes of +6 and -6, respectively."

Not sure why Ethereal benefits so little...maybe you can investigate after you've resolved the timeout issues.

[AndrewGrant]

Have you ever actually tried a match between Stockfish with EGTB vs. without EGTB? With 6 man EGTB, one can expect less than 10 elo. For comparison, let's try Stockfish with an evaluation function vs. without an evaluation function... oh wait, that would be stupid. They're not remotely comparable and you know it.

You're just arguing in bad faith at this point so I don't see any reason to continue this discussion.

Correct on all accounts: http://chess.grantnet.us/test/11234/

And if anyone thinks a few hundred TB hits in the early game has any impact on the search tree ... well you don't have great intuition.

You should be getting at least 15-18, especially at longer TCs

CalPoly did a thorough study on this:
https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/ ... text=cpesp

Basically their results were as follows:

"Tablebase use has a significant performance benefit across all tested levels of play when using a short time control.
This gain can be expected to be approximately +20 Elo points for engines similar to those tested.

In longer games, Tablebase use tends to help stronger engines more. Stockfish saw an 18-point gain on increased time settings, whereas Spike and N2 had changes of +6 and -6, respectively."

Not sure why Ethereal benefits so little...maybe you can investigate between the other issues

Maybe you can present Fire (Stockfish) gaining +18 points as well as a rebuttal. (On an HDD, btw)

[kranium]

Have you ever actually tried a match between Stockfish with EGTB vs. without EGTB? With 6 man EGTB, one can expect less than 10 elo. For comparison, let's try Stockfish with an evaluation function vs. without an evaluation function... oh wait, that would be stupid. They're not remotely comparable and you know it.

You're just arguing in bad faith at this point so I don't see any reason to continue this discussion.

Correct on all accounts: http://chess.grantnet.us/test/11234/

And if anyone thinks a few hundred TB hits in the early game has any impact on the search tree ... well you don't have great intuition.

You should be getting at least 15-18, especially at longer TCs

CalPoly did a thorough study on this:
https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/ ... text=cpesp

Basically their results were as follows:

"Tablebase use has a significant performance benefit across all tested levels of play when using a short time control.
This gain can be expected to be approximately +20 Elo points for engines similar to those tested.

In longer games, Tablebase use tends to help stronger engines more. Stockfish saw an 18-point gain on increased time settings, whereas Spike and N2 had changes of +6 and -6, respectively."

Not sure why Ethereal benefits so little...maybe you can investigate between the other issues

Maybe you can present Fire (Stockfish) gaining +18 points as well as a rebuttal. (On an HDD, btw)

No need...the CalPoly study states the facts clearly enough for me.
BTW- if you read the study, it comes to the conclusion that SSD or HDD doesn't make a difference,

"Engine strength does not appear to have any relationship with tablebase access speed and relative performance gains/losses."
so that's a pretty lame excuse for Ethereal's sub-par performance.
I do sincerely suggest you look into it...it's not right. You owe it to your customers.

[AndrewGrant]

Have you ever actually tried a match between Stockfish with EGTB vs. without EGTB? With 6 man EGTB, one can expect less than 10 elo. For comparison, let's try Stockfish with an evaluation function vs. without an evaluation function... oh wait, that would be stupid. They're not remotely comparable and you know it.

You're just arguing in bad faith at this point so I don't see any reason to continue this discussion.

Correct on all accounts: http://chess.grantnet.us/test/11234/

And if anyone thinks a few hundred TB hits in the early game has any impact on the search tree ... well you don't have great intuition.

You should be getting at least 15-18, especially at longer TCs

CalPoly did a thorough study on this:
https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/ ... text=cpesp

Basically their results were as follows:

"Tablebase use has a significant performance benefit across all tested levels of play when using a short time control.
This gain can be expected to be approximately +20 Elo points for engines similar to those tested.

In longer games, Tablebase use tends to help stronger engines more. Stockfish saw an 18-point gain on increased time settings, whereas Spike and N2 had changes of +6 and -6, respectively."

Not sure why Ethereal benefits so little...maybe you can investigate between the other issues

Maybe you can present Fire (Stockfish) gaining +18 points as well as a rebuttal. (On an HDD, btw)

No need...the CalPoly study states the facts clearly enough for me.
BTW- if you read the study, it comes to the conclusion that SSD or HDD doesn't make a difference,

"Engine strength does not appear to have any relationship with tablebase access speed and relative performance gains/losses."
so that's a pretty lame excuse for Ethereal's sub-par performance.
I do sincerely suggest you look into it...it's not right. You owe it to your customers.

A study concluded that speed has no impact on elo? Yikes. Hope those kids don't get their degrees. And maybe teach them about 5-nomial distribution errors.

[kranium]

No need...the CalPoly study states the facts clearly enough for me.
BTW- if you read the study, it comes to the conclusion that SSD or HDD doesn't make a difference,

"Engine strength does not appear to have any relationship with tablebase access speed and relative performance gains/losses."
so that's a pretty lame excuse for Ethereal's sub-par performance.
I do sincerely suggest you look into it...it's not right. You owe it to your customers.

A study concluded that speed has no impact on elo? Yikes. Hope those kids don't get their degrees. And maybe teach them about 5-nomial distribution errors.

I guess these graduate students need you to mentor and guide them
& technical jargon thrown out as a smokescreen...seriously?

[AndrewGrant]

No need...the CalPoly study states the facts clearly enough for me.
BTW- if you read the study, it comes to the conclusion that SSD or HDD doesn't make a difference,

"Engine strength does not appear to have any relationship with tablebase access speed and relative performance gains/losses."
so that's a pretty lame excuse for Ethereal's sub-par performance.
I do sincerely suggest you look into it...it's not right. You owe it to your customers.

A study concluded that speed has no impact on elo? Yikes. Hope those kids don't get their degrees. And maybe teach them about 5-nomial distribution errors.

I guess these graduate students need you to mentor and guide them
& technical jargon thrown out as a smokescreen...seriously?

If you read it, then you would see what I saw from scimming, which was samples of 250 games. Which have error bars the exceed their alleged findings. I know you are so down on yourself after be ousted as a fraud yet again, but you are better off packing your bags and spending your time with another hobby, than using any and everything as an attempt to attack me, only to be swatted down the tiny annoying fly you are.

[AndrewGrant]

...

[kranium]

All this gloating about how Ethereal NNUE trainer is "original" or whatever while Fire's isn't etc for what exactly ?
Reinventing the wheel doesn't make one original or smarter. If one enjoys doing that, that is fine, but bashing others because
they don't do it your way is bullshit.

People disagreeing with you, and not immediately swallowing your 'bullshit' as Daniel S. called it...is hardly an attack.
Perhaps you'll understand that one day and be able to tolerate some conflict without resorting to insults.

[AndrewGrant]

All this gloating about how Ethereal NNUE trainer is "original" or whatever while Fire's isn't etc for what exactly ?
Reinventing the wheel doesn't make one original or smarter. If one enjoys doing that, that is fine, but bashing others because
they don't do it your way is bullshit.

People disagreeing with you, and not immediately swallowing your 'bullshit' as Daniel S. called it...is hardly an attack.
Perhaps you'll understand that one day and be able to tolerate some conflict without resorting to insults.

Arguments made in bad faith are attacks. Arguments made from common understandings, but differences of views, are convincing at times. The only reason you believe I'm stuck in my ways is because you don't make legitimate arguments to sway me. My conversations with engine developers, members of the Leela team, are much more fruitful, and result in my views changing in order to account for new information.