larger nets for SF?

[Werewolf]

If Fat Fritz 2 is basically SF 12 with a larger net, but has an elo roughly the same as SF 13, why don't the SF team combine larger nets to make SF Dev much stronger?

[Dann Corbit]

Because Fat Fritz has put fear into their hearts. This usurper has beaten us with very, very, very little resources:
http://www.cegt.net/40_40%20Rating%20Li ... liste.html

Now, they know they were wrong, but they are careful to react because they don't want to look stupid.
When the stronger cards appear, they will be positively forced to react, but for now, they cower in a corner, with their hands over their heads.

I believe it was monty python who bravely said, "run away! run away!"

[kinderchocolate]

FF2 is closer to SF13 than SF12.

[Werewolf]

Kinderchoc - thanks, that makes a lot of sense. So basically the FF2 net doesn't add as much as claimed, but it looked like it did when it was thought FF2 was based on SF12

[Milos]

Because Fat Fritz has put fear into their hearts. This usurper has beaten us with very, very, very little resources:
http://www.cegt.net/40_40%20Rating%20Li ... liste.html

Now, they know they were wrong, but they are careful to react because they don't want to look stupid.
When the stronger cards appear, they will be positively forced to react, but for now, they cower in a corner, with their hands over their heads.

I believe it was monty python who bravely said, "run away! run away!"

Cards??? What cards? What the hell are you talking about? It's Fat Fritz 2 that is in question i.e. SF clone, not Fat Fritz (1) that is Lc0 clone.

[Sopel]

That's how far false marketing can go.

Fat Fritz 2 is based on a development version of stockfish from early february this year and is worse than said base.

[Dann Corbit]

It appears that my point was missed entirely.
If you examine the Elo of the LC0 nets, the larger the net, the larger the Elo. And it isn't close. The big nets CLOBBER the smaller ones.
I think that bigger and bigger nets should be constructed until it is no longer true.

Similarly with SF.
Yes, Albert spent a great deal of money testing out his ideas. But the resources he could purchase are not nearly so large as the free resource of the SF mega-team has at their very fingertips.
And yet this upstart beats them all:
http://www.cegt.net/40_40%20Rating%20Li ... liste.html

What did he do?
Well, one OBVIOUS thing is to double the net size.
Now, he also did special analysis to vary the input data, which is not to be discounted.
But why shouldn't the SF team double, quadruple, and so on the size of the net until no more Elo falls out of it?
To me, it seems an utter no-brainer.

[MikeB]

It appears that my point was missed entirely.
If you examine the Elo of the LC0 nets, the larger the net, the larger the Elo. And it isn't close. The big nets CLOBBER the smaller ones.
I think that bigger and bigger nets should be constructed until it is no longer true.

Similarly with SF.
Yes, Albert spent a great deal of money testing out his ideas. But the resources he could purchase are not nearly so large as the free resource of the SF mega-team has at their very fingertips.
And yet this upstart beats them all:
http://www.cegt.net/40_40%20Rating%20Li ... liste.html

What did he do?
Well, one OBVIOUS thing is to double the net size.
Now, he also did special analysis to vary the input data, which is not to be discounted.
But why shouldn't the SF team double, quadruple, and so on the size of the net until no more Elo falls out of it?
To me, it seems an utter no-brainer.

hmmm... I see a difference in style of play and FRC was certainly better, but Elo gain from doubling? - from whatever possible gain was obtained, it does not appear to be worth the extra 20MB of space to store... just my $.02 .. I do like the fact that Albert tried something new and maybe he is on to something, but I am not sure yet.

[smatovic]

...
But why shouldn't the SF team double, quadruple, and so on the size of the net until no more Elo falls out of it?
...

I think it is a trade-off, bigger nets = less nps = shallower AB searches. Elo gain by bigger nets vs. Elo gain by deeper searches, or alike. With more horse-power from vector units on CPU the net size will rise for sure.

--
Srdja

[Joost Buijs]

hmmm... I see a difference in style of play and FRC was certainly better, but Elo gain from doubling? - from whatever possible gain was obtained, it does not appear to be worth the extra 20MB of space to store... just my $.02 .. I do like the fact that Albert tried something new and maybe he is on to something, but I am not sure yet.

It's nothing new, everybody understands that a larger network can hold more information. With current computers the storage space is not a problem too, it's all a trade-off between speed and network size. At the point that the Elo gain from increasing the network size becomes less than the Elo loss from the decreased speed you don't want to make it larger anymore.