Alex resigned games once he thought he had little chance to win; in one or two cases he might have been mistaken in that conclusion. He did better than we all expected to reach 2' + 1"; Komodo Dragon won overall by 17 to 15, but Alex was doing fine until he had to play Black with 3' + 1", which proved very difficult, although he eventually won a game that way. Looks like 4' + 1" was the break-even TC under the given conditions.
Mr. Kaufman, Can you post those two games where you believe that Alex resigned too prematurely so we can analyze them deep, using any top engine ? I truly believe that after you give a Knight odds to any GM rated above 2675, once he realized that the position is equal having the same or equal amount of time left, once Komodo Dragon level the position there is no reason to continue against an engine rated over 650 rating points above the GM
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One game he resigned with just rook vs rook since he didn't want to waste time playing fifty moves to claim a draw which wouldn't help him. Another he thought was going to be perpetual check but he had a move to keep +2 pawn advantage. Another he was still up knight for pawn but it was a bit messy. I can't remember all the cases of early resignation, it would take a lot of time to find them all. Of course if the position is truly about equal, then the GM will either lose or draw depending on whether it is still unclear or a fairly obviously drawn endgame or perpetual check.
[/quote]
Thanks, for the detail of those games that GM Lenderman resigned, your engine did GREAT specially winning most of the games with TC of 3'+1", which clearly tell me that Dragon can hold its own against GM Nakamura or Carlsen under the same condition played with TC of 3'+1" or under. https://www.chess.com/member/playkomodo
Do NOT worry and be happy, we all live a short life
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:35 pmI truly believe that after you give a Knight odds to any GM rated above 2675, once he realized that the position is equal having the same or equal amount of time left, once Komodo Dragon level the position there is no reason to continue against an engine rated over 650 rating points above the GM
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:35 pmI truly believe that after you give a Knight odds to any GM rated above 2675, once he realized that the position is equal having the same or equal amount of time left, once Komodo Dragon level the position there is no reason to continue against an engine rated over 650 rating points above the GM
CCRL rating != FIDE rating
Even if you reduce the CCRL by 250 rating points Dragon is still 500 rating more, remember when Deep Fritz and Deep Junior was only about 250 CCRL rating point over GM Kramnik, and when they played a match with even pieces, Well you know what happened. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/cros ... chess.html
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:35 pmI truly believe that after you give a Knight odds to any GM rated above 2675, once he realized that the position is equal having the same or equal amount of time left, once Komodo Dragon level the position there is no reason to continue against an engine rated over 650 rating points above the GM
CCRL rating != FIDE rating
Even if you reduce the CCRL by 200 rating points Dragon is still 550 rating more, remember when Deep Fritz and Deep Junior was only about 250 CCRL rating point over GM Kramnik, and when they played a match with even pieces, Well you know what happened. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/cros ... chess.html
Actually 550 or 650 are gross underestimates of the elo difference if we're talking about blitz, which is what is relevant here. If we go by the CCRL scale, Dragon on 8 cores is 3679, and the latest Dragon in MCTS mode (in Linux so not affected by the Windows MCTS compile issue reported in another thread) on 32 cores should be around 3700 CCRL blitz (quadruple cores should more than offset MCTS). Based on his games with crippled Komodo versions, I think Nakamura would be something like 2250 against the engines under CCRL blitz conditions, and he is about 250 above Lenderman on FIDE blitz, so Lenderman should be 2000 CCRL blitz (!). That's 1700 difference! Or if you use the chess.com blitz scale, Lenderman is a bit under 2800, Nakamura usually near 3200. Komodo (pre-dragon, using 16 of 32 cores) beat him 10 to zero at ten minute chess, and beat him 6.5 to 1.5 giving him two pawns in rapid; I think Dragon would be over 4000 against the top humans playing chess.com blitz. That's a 1200 gap. Maybe that's more realistic than 1700 (the human scale is more compact than the engine scale), but anyway a lot more than 550 or 650. In general my testing has indicated that knight odds is somewhere in the 1000 to 1200 elo range at GM level for the odds-receiver, so this is pretty consistent with the match result. At classical time limits I think that the CCRL 40/15 list is not too far off from FIDE, where Dragon on 4 cpu is about 3500, so in classical chess a 2400 FIDE IM should be a good match based on this. Actually I think the IM would win, the elo gap for knight odds is greater with longer time controls.
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:35 pmI truly believe that after you give a Knight odds to any GM rated above 2675, once he realized that the position is equal having the same or equal amount of time left, once Komodo Dragon level the position there is no reason to continue against an engine rated over 650 rating points above the GM
CCRL rating != FIDE rating
Even if you reduce the CCRL by 200 rating points Dragon is still 550 rating more, remember when Deep Fritz and Deep Junior was only about 250 CCRL rating point over GM Kramnik, and when they played a match with even pieces, Well you know what happened. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/cros ... chess.html
Actually 550 or 650 are gross underestimates of the elo difference if we're talking about blitz, which is what is relevant here. If we go by the CCRL scale, Dragon on 8 cores is 3679, and the latest Dragon in MCTS mode (in Linux so not affected by the Windows MCTS compile issue reported in another thread) on 32 cores should be around 3700 CCRL blitz (quadruple cores should more than offset MCTS). Based on his games with crippled Komodo versions, I think Nakamura would be something like 2250 against the engines under CCRL blitz conditions, and he is about 250 above Lenderman on FIDE blitz, so Lenderman should be 2000 CCRL blitz (!). That's 1700 difference! Or if you use the chess.com blitz scale, Lenderman is a bit under 2800, Nakamura usually near 3200. Komodo (pre-dragon, using 16 of 32 cores) beat him 10 to zero at ten minute chess, and beat him 6.5 to 1.5 giving him two pawns in rapid; I think Dragon would be over 4000 against the top humans playing chess.com blitz. That's a 1200 gap. Maybe that's more realistic than 1700 (the human scale is more compact than the engine scale), but anyway a lot more than 550 or 650. In general my testing has indicated that knight odds is somewhere in the 1000 to 1200 elo range at GM level for the odds-receiver, so this is pretty consistent with the match result. At classical time limits I think that the CCRL 40/15 list is not too far off from FIDE, where Dragon on 4 cpu is about 3500, so in classical chess a 2400 FIDE IM should be a good match based on this. Actually I think the IM would win, the elo gap for knight odds is greater with longer time controls.
Thank Mr. Kaufman, I totally agree with you, except " I think Nakamura would be something like 2250 against the engines under CCRL blitz conditions" That would only apply to a 2250 CCRL rated engine that uses good chess opening, Plus at least a 4 pieces EGTB, but if you take for instance Big Jump rated around 2250 without a good chess opening and EGTB I would bet on GM Nakamura playing 5 Minutes Blitz.
Do NOT worry and be happy, we all live a short life
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:35 pmI truly believe that after you give a Knight odds to any GM rated above 2675, once he realized that the position is equal having the same or equal amount of time left, once Komodo Dragon level the position there is no reason to continue against an engine rated over 650 rating points above the GM
CCRL rating != FIDE rating
Even if you reduce the CCRL by 200 rating points Dragon is still 550 rating more, remember when Deep Fritz and Deep Junior was only about 250 CCRL rating point over GM Kramnik, and when they played a match with even pieces, Well you know what happened. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/cros ... chess.html
Actually 550 or 650 are gross underestimates of the elo difference if we're talking about blitz, which is what is relevant here. If we go by the CCRL scale, Dragon on 8 cores is 3679, and the latest Dragon in MCTS mode (in Linux so not affected by the Windows MCTS compile issue reported in another thread) on 32 cores should be around 3700 CCRL blitz (quadruple cores should more than offset MCTS). Based on his games with crippled Komodo versions, I think Nakamura would be something like 2250 against the engines under CCRL blitz conditions, and he is about 250 above Lenderman on FIDE blitz, so Lenderman should be 2000 CCRL blitz (!). That's 1700 difference! Or if you use the chess.com blitz scale, Lenderman is a bit under 2800, Nakamura usually near 3200. Komodo (pre-dragon, using 16 of 32 cores) beat him 10 to zero at ten minute chess, and beat him 6.5 to 1.5 giving him two pawns in rapid; I think Dragon would be over 4000 against the top humans playing chess.com blitz. That's a 1200 gap. Maybe that's more realistic than 1700 (the human scale is more compact than the engine scale), but anyway a lot more than 550 or 650. In general my testing has indicated that knight odds is somewhere in the 1000 to 1200 elo range at GM level for the odds-receiver, so this is pretty consistent with the match result. At classical time limits I think that the CCRL 40/15 list is not too far off from FIDE, where Dragon on 4 cpu is about 3500, so in classical chess a 2400 FIDE IM should be a good match based on this. Actually I think the IM would win, the elo gap for knight odds is greater with longer time controls.
Thank Mr. Kaufman, I totally agree with you, except " I think Nakamura would be something like 2250 against the engines under CCRL blitz conditions" That would only apply to a 2250 CCRL rated engine that uses good chess opening, Plus at least a 4 pieces EGTB, but if you take for instance Big Jump rated around 2250 without a good chess opening and EGTB I would bet on GM Nakamura playing 5 Minutes Blitz.
I don't see a "Big Jump" on the list, but you probably mean BikJump which is 2102 on CCRL blitz, so Nakamura would have to score about 70% against it on an I7 in blitz, using at least a decent opening book, just to get a 2250 rating. That seems realistic to me based on his play vs. the chess.com bots. Also note that "CCRL blitz conditions" means 2' +1", so roughly 3 min chess rather than 5 min chess. Maybe at 5 min he would be 2300 CCRL blitz.
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:35 pmI truly believe that after you give a Knight odds to any GM rated above 2675, once he realized that the position is equal having the same or equal amount of time left, once Komodo Dragon level the position there is no reason to continue against an engine rated over 650 rating points above the GM
CCRL rating != FIDE rating
Even if you reduce the CCRL by 200 rating points Dragon is still 550 rating more, remember when Deep Fritz and Deep Junior was only about 250 CCRL rating point over GM Kramnik, and when they played a match with even pieces, Well you know what happened. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/cros ... chess.html
Actually 550 or 650 are gross underestimates of the elo difference if we're talking about blitz, which is what is relevant here. If we go by the CCRL scale, Dragon on 8 cores is 3679, and the latest Dragon in MCTS mode (in Linux so not affected by the Windows MCTS compile issue reported in another thread) on 32 cores should be around 3700 CCRL blitz (quadruple cores should more than offset MCTS). Based on his games with crippled Komodo versions, I think Nakamura would be something like 2250 against the engines under CCRL blitz conditions, and he is about 250 above Lenderman on FIDE blitz, so Lenderman should be 2000 CCRL blitz (!). That's 1700 difference! Or if you use the chess.com blitz scale, Lenderman is a bit under 2800, Nakamura usually near 3200. Komodo (pre-dragon, using 16 of 32 cores) beat him 10 to zero at ten minute chess, and beat him 6.5 to 1.5 giving him two pawns in rapid; I think Dragon would be over 4000 against the top humans playing chess.com blitz. That's a 1200 gap. Maybe that's more realistic than 1700 (the human scale is more compact than the engine scale), but anyway a lot more than 550 or 650. In general my testing has indicated that knight odds is somewhere in the 1000 to 1200 elo range at GM level for the odds-receiver, so this is pretty consistent with the match result. At classical time limits I think that the CCRL 40/15 list is not too far off from FIDE, where Dragon on 4 cpu is about 3500, so in classical chess a 2400 FIDE IM should be a good match based on this. Actually I think the IM would win, the elo gap for knight odds is greater with longer time controls.
Thank Mr. Kaufman, I totally agree with you, except " I think Nakamura would be something like 2250 against the engines under CCRL blitz conditions" That would only apply to a 2250 CCRL rated engine that uses good chess opening, Plus at least a 4 pieces EGTB, but if you take for instance Big Jump rated around 2250 without a good chess opening and EGTB I would bet on GM Nakamura playing 5 Minutes Blitz.
I don't see a "Big Jump" on the list, but you probably mean BikJump which is 2102 on CCRL blitz, so Nakamura would have to score about 70% against it on an I7 in blitz, using at least a decent opening book, just to get a 2250 rating. That seems realistic to me based on his play vs. the chess.com bots. Also note that "CCRL blitz conditions" means 2' +1", so roughly 3 min chess rather than 5 min chess. Maybe at 5 min he would be 2300 CCRL blitz.
Yes you probably need to give at lest a 3 men EGTB to BikJump since I tested to see if it knew how to promote a pawn using the opposition and it failed without a EGTB using my intel i7 4770 3.40 using a TC of at 2'+1"
[d]7k/8/8/8/8/8/6PK/8 w - - 0 1
Do NOT worry and be happy, we all live a short life
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:35 pmI truly believe that after you give a Knight odds to any GM rated above 2675, once he realized that the position is equal having the same or equal amount of time left, once Komodo Dragon level the position there is no reason to continue against an engine rated over 650 rating points above the GM
CCRL rating != FIDE rating
Even if you reduce the CCRL by 200 rating points Dragon is still 550 rating more, remember when Deep Fritz and Deep Junior was only about 250 CCRL rating point over GM Kramnik, and when they played a match with even pieces, Well you know what happened. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/cros ... chess.html
Actually 550 or 650 are gross underestimates of the elo difference if we're talking about blitz, which is what is relevant here. If we go by the CCRL scale, Dragon on 8 cores is 3679, and the latest Dragon in MCTS mode (in Linux so not affected by the Windows MCTS compile issue reported in another thread) on 32 cores should be around 3700 CCRL blitz (quadruple cores should more than offset MCTS). Based on his games with crippled Komodo versions, I think Nakamura would be something like 2250 against the engines under CCRL blitz conditions, and he is about 250 above Lenderman on FIDE blitz, so Lenderman should be 2000 CCRL blitz (!). That's 1700 difference! Or if you use the chess.com blitz scale, Lenderman is a bit under 2800, Nakamura usually near 3200. Komodo (pre-dragon, using 16 of 32 cores) beat him 10 to zero at ten minute chess, and beat him 6.5 to 1.5 giving him two pawns in rapid; I think Dragon would be over 4000 against the top humans playing chess.com blitz. That's a 1200 gap. Maybe that's more realistic than 1700 (the human scale is more compact than the engine scale), but anyway a lot more than 550 or 650. In general my testing has indicated that knight odds is somewhere in the 1000 to 1200 elo range at GM level for the odds-receiver, so this is pretty consistent with the match result. At classical time limits I think that the CCRL 40/15 list is not too far off from FIDE, where Dragon on 4 cpu is about 3500, so in classical chess a 2400 FIDE IM should be a good match based on this. Actually I think the IM would win, the elo gap for knight odds is greater with longer time controls.
Thank Mr. Kaufman, I totally agree with you, except " I think Nakamura would be something like 2250 against the engines under CCRL blitz conditions" That would only apply to a 2250 CCRL rated engine that uses good chess opening, Plus at least a 4 pieces EGTB, but if you take for instance Big Jump rated around 2250 without a good chess opening and EGTB I would bet on GM Nakamura playing 5 Minutes Blitz.
I don't see a "Big Jump" on the list, but you probably mean BikJump which is 2102 on CCRL blitz, so Nakamura would have to score about 70% against it on an I7 in blitz, using at least a decent opening book, just to get a 2250 rating. That seems realistic to me based on his play vs. the chess.com bots. Also note that "CCRL blitz conditions" means 2' +1", so roughly 3 min chess rather than 5 min chess. Maybe at 5 min he would be 2300 CCRL blitz.
Yes you probably need to give at lest a 3 men EGTB to BikJump since I tested to see if it knew how to promote a pawn using the opposition and it failed without a EGTB using my intel i7 4770 3.40 using a TC of at 2'+1"
[d]7k/8/8/8/8/8/6PK/8 w - - 0 1
Well it's normal enough to use 4 or 5 man EGTB for engine ratings and so we can assume this, but it would probably only matter on rare occasions in blitz so it's only a few elo difference in any event. Many tests have shown that tablebases are just not a big deal elo-wise, though they have some value. Most games are just decided before reaching this stage, or else the result is an obvious win or draw even without TBs.
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:35 pmI truly believe that after you give a Knight odds to any GM rated above 2675, once he realized that the position is equal having the same or equal amount of time left, once Komodo Dragon level the position there is no reason to continue against an engine rated over 650 rating points above the GM
CCRL rating != FIDE rating
Even if you reduce the CCRL by 200 rating points Dragon is still 550 rating more, remember when Deep Fritz and Deep Junior was only about 250 CCRL rating point over GM Kramnik, and when they played a match with even pieces, Well you know what happened. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/cros ... chess.html
Actually 550 or 650 are gross underestimates of the elo difference if we're talking about blitz, which is what is relevant here. If we go by the CCRL scale, Dragon on 8 cores is 3679, and the latest Dragon in MCTS mode (in Linux so not affected by the Windows MCTS compile issue reported in another thread) on 32 cores should be around 3700 CCRL blitz (quadruple cores should more than offset MCTS). Based on his games with crippled Komodo versions, I think Nakamura would be something like 2250 against the engines under CCRL blitz conditions, and he is about 250 above Lenderman on FIDE blitz, so Lenderman should be 2000 CCRL blitz (!). That's 1700 difference! Or if you use the chess.com blitz scale, Lenderman is a bit under 2800, Nakamura usually near 3200. Komodo (pre-dragon, using 16 of 32 cores) beat him 10 to zero at ten minute chess, and beat him 6.5 to 1.5 giving him two pawns in rapid; I think Dragon would be over 4000 against the top humans playing chess.com blitz. That's a 1200 gap. Maybe that's more realistic than 1700 (the human scale is more compact than the engine scale), but anyway a lot more than 550 or 650. In general my testing has indicated that knight odds is somewhere in the 1000 to 1200 elo range at GM level for the odds-receiver, so this is pretty consistent with the match result. At classical time limits I think that the CCRL 40/15 list is not too far off from FIDE, where Dragon on 4 cpu is about 3500, so in classical chess a 2400 FIDE IM should be a good match based on this. Actually I think the IM would win, the elo gap for knight odds is greater with longer time controls.
Thank Mr. Kaufman, I totally agree with you, except " I think Nakamura would be something like 2250 against the engines under CCRL blitz conditions" That would only apply to a 2250 CCRL rated engine that uses good chess opening, Plus at least a 4 pieces EGTB, but if you take for instance Big Jump rated around 2250 without a good chess opening and EGTB I would bet on GM Nakamura playing 5 Minutes Blitz.
I don't see a "Big Jump" on the list, but you probably mean BikJump which is 2102 on CCRL blitz, so Nakamura would have to score about 70% against it on an I7 in blitz, using at least a decent opening book, just to get a 2250 rating. That seems realistic to me based on his play vs. the chess.com bots. Also note that "CCRL blitz conditions" means 2' +1", so roughly 3 min chess rather than 5 min chess. Maybe at 5 min he would be 2300 CCRL blitz.
Here we clearly see GM Nakamura beating all the chess.com bots
Do NOT worry and be happy, we all live a short life
