Why Stockfish can still get caught by simple forced 3 fold repetition with checks to King ?
Shouldn't it avoid lines of play and positions that let the opponent use of this to draw game ?
Is there some theory or programming limits to deal with that (I imagine it is a difficult subject with methods to find 3 fold repetition patterns for itself if needed while trying to avoid the opponent to have this possibility).
Draw by 3 fold repetition...
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Draw by 3 fold repetition...
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Re: Draw by 3 fold repetition...
Example? It will avoid 3fold, if it thinks it is not behind in evaluation (contempt included).Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:27 pm Why Stockfish can still get caught by simple forced 3 fold repetition with checks to King ?
Shouldn't it avoid lines of play and positions that let the opponent use of this to draw game ?
Is there some theory or programming limits to deal with that (I imagine it is a difficult subject with methods to find 3 fold repetition patterns for itself if needed while trying to avoid the opponent to have this possibility).
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Re: Draw by 3 fold repetition...
When stockfish thinks 20+ depth why he didn't managed to avoid a 3 fold check repetition that is 6 or 8 depth?Guenther wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:37 pmExample? It will avoid 3fold, if it thinks it is not behind in evaluation (contempt included).Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:27 pm Why Stockfish can still get caught by simple forced 3 fold repetition with checks to King ?
Shouldn't it avoid lines of play and positions that let the opponent use of this to draw game ?
Is there some theory or programming limits to deal with that (I imagine it is a difficult subject with methods to find 3 fold repetition patterns for itself if needed while trying to avoid the opponent to have this possibility).
First answer that comes to mind is : because it has not been coded to avoid it
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Re: Draw by 3 fold repetition...
Still no example?Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:44 pmWhen stockfish thinks 20+ depth why he didn't managed to avoid a 3 fold check repetition that is 6 or 8 depth?Guenther wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:37 pmExample? It will avoid 3fold, if it thinks it is not behind in evaluation (contempt included).Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:27 pm Why Stockfish can still get caught by simple forced 3 fold repetition with checks to King ?
Shouldn't it avoid lines of play and positions that let the opponent use of this to draw game ?
Is there some theory or programming limits to deal with that (I imagine it is a difficult subject with methods to find 3 fold repetition patterns for itself if needed while trying to avoid the opponent to have this possibility).
First answer that comes to mind is : because it has not been coded to avoid it
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Re: Draw by 3 fold repetition...
I will get on lichess later. But my wondering is general. I see at high level many draws by repetition in engines games. So I think i see this as a big problem in evaluation functionGuenther wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:46 pmStill no example?Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:44 pmWhen stockfish thinks 20+ depth why he didn't managed to avoid a 3 fold check repetition that is 6 or 8 depth?Guenther wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:37 pmExample? It will avoid 3fold, if it thinks it is not behind in evaluation (contempt included).Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:27 pm Why Stockfish can still get caught by simple forced 3 fold repetition with checks to King ?
Shouldn't it avoid lines of play and positions that let the opponent use of this to draw game ?
Is there some theory or programming limits to deal with that (I imagine it is a difficult subject with methods to find 3 fold repetition patterns for itself if needed while trying to avoid the opponent to have this possibility).
First answer that comes to mind is : because it has not been coded to avoid it
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Re: Draw by 3 fold repetition...
I don't see this... usually no engine except with severe bugs will draw by rep, except it thinks there is no better move, or it thinks the position of the opponent is already better.Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:50 pmI will get on lichess later. But my wondering is general. I see at high level many draws by repetition in engines games. So I think i see this as a big problem in evaluation functionGuenther wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:46 pmStill no example?Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:44 pmWhen stockfish thinks 20+ depth why he didn't managed to avoid a 3 fold check repetition that is 6 or 8 depth?Guenther wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:37 pmExample? It will avoid 3fold, if it thinks it is not behind in evaluation (contempt included).Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:27 pm Why Stockfish can still get caught by simple forced 3 fold repetition with checks to King ?
Shouldn't it avoid lines of play and positions that let the opponent use of this to draw game ?
Is there some theory or programming limits to deal with that (I imagine it is a difficult subject with methods to find 3 fold repetition patterns for itself if needed while trying to avoid the opponent to have this possibility).
First answer that comes to mind is : because it has not been coded to avoid it
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Re: Draw by 3 fold repetition...
Oh ! But How the opponent that position is supposed to be better let this 3 fold repetition happenGuenther wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:54 pmI don't see this... usually no engine except with severe bugs will draw by rep, except it thinks there is no better move, or it thinks the position of the opponent is already better.Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:50 pmI will get on lichess later. But my wondering is general. I see at high level many draws by repetition in engines games. So I think i see this as a big problem in evaluation functionGuenther wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:46 pmStill no example?Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:44 pmWhen stockfish thinks 20+ depth why he didn't managed to avoid a 3 fold check repetition that is 6 or 8 depth?Guenther wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:37 pmExample? It will avoid 3fold, if it thinks it is not behind in evaluation (contempt included).Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:27 pm Why Stockfish can still get caught by simple forced 3 fold repetition with checks to King ?
Shouldn't it avoid lines of play and positions that let the opponent use of this to draw game ?
Is there some theory or programming limits to deal with that (I imagine it is a difficult subject with methods to find 3 fold repetition patterns for itself if needed while trying to avoid the opponent to have this possibility).
First answer that comes to mind is : because it has not been coded to avoid it
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Re: Draw by 3 fold repetition...
here an example... but it's one example amongst many : https://lichess.org/Mm6BnWjv/white#92
another one ; https://lichess.org/2HC4sORt/white
another one ; https://lichess.org/2HC4sORt/white
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Re: Draw by 3 fold repetition...
Obviously you must be a quite weak player yourself?Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:25 pm here an example... but it's one example amongst many : https://lichess.org/Mm6BnWjv/white#92
1. Those are quite likely SF vs. SF games
2. White has simply no other moves and your opponent (=Black) forced the draw
3. Of course White (your SF) doesn't want to lose, so it has to take the draw
So much for creating a hypothesis about a big general problem, which does not exist
A quite annoying thread and your attitude in this thread makes me doubt I would like replying to you again.
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Re: Draw by 3 fold repetition...
Lol nobody forced you to reply. You are quite agressive. If you have problems in your life others are not responsible for it.Guenther wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:39 pmObviously you must be a quite weak player yourself?Pi4Chess wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:25 pm here an example... but it's one example amongst many : https://lichess.org/Mm6BnWjv/white#92
1. Those are quite likely SF vs. SF games
2. White has simply no other moves and your opponent (=Black) forced the draw
3. Of course White (your SF) doesn't want to lose, so it has to take the draw
So much for creating a hypothesis about a big general problem, which does not exist
A quite annoying thread and your attitude in this thread makes me doubt I would like replying to you again.
Let me think that an engine should avoid 3 fold repetition draws (especially those forced by king's checking) in its search for playable positions, and this could be a nice improvement if these type of draws could be avoided in top engines matches.
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