NNUE vs New Engines Swiss...No Changes?

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supersharp77
Posts: 1242
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:54 am
Location: Southwest USA

NNUE vs New Engines Swiss...No Changes?

Post by supersharp77 »

http://www.talkchess.com/forum3/viewtop ... =6&t=75728

pgn Games file http://www.mediafire.com/file/es872dw23 ... _A.7z/file

Critical testing for All of these NNUE engines from the recent months (July- August of 2020 to the present) Many engines have been created and many wild and exaggerated claims have been made concerning the strength of this new NNUE concept…therefore I have patiently accumulated as many as possible to do some accurate testing…”Lets just get down to the bottom of this issue shall we?” Some classic and even ancient engines have been mixed in with these LC0 and NNUE and New engines so we can obtain the most accurate sample of these new entrants overall strength and ability…The sharpest lines have been used to save time and to counter some of these engines drawing characteristics in certain balanced positions so we should see a lot of excellent “Fighting Chess Games” So lets Just watch and see what happens..shall we?
:) :wink:
Round 3 of this Swiss tourney is currently underway and as you can see from the current results table and the engines in the top 30-40 spots I cannot honestly determine so far any sign of dominance of the NNUE engines as compared to the Regular A-B searchers or the older NN chess engines in comparison…As a matter of fact the LC0 engines are doing quite well at the moment with 3 engines in the top ten..based on these results It looks like chess engine authors are free to continue with their Pre-NNUE chess engine development projects…It also looks clear that NNUE engines don’t have quite the search depth of the regular A-B search engines in many cases…So its “Back To The Drawing Board My Friends”……


2020 NNUE & New Engines Swiss 2020

1 2 3
1 Minic 2.43 x64 (ming) 2700 -1 +1 +1 3.0/3 +633
143 108 33
2 Sanjib 4.0 XP x64 2700 -1 -1 +1 3.0/3 +650
130 107 29
3 SugaR 1.6.1 64(MCTS) 2800 +1 -1 +1 3.0/3 +650
142 131 32
4 Lc0 v0.26.1 (dnnl) 2700 +1 -1 +1 3.0/3 +666
134 132 34
5 Lc0 v0.26.0 (dnnl) 2700 +1 -1 +1 3.0/3 +666
135 110 41
6 Heron impossible 1 64 . 2675 +1 -1 +1 3.0/3 +641
140 123 30
7 Dirty 11-2015 w64 2625 -1 +1 +1 3.0/3 +900
136 129 38
8 Atlas Too 2600 -1 +1 -1 3.0/3 +766
118 138 39
9 Lc0 v0.26.3-rc1 (blas) 2700 -1 +1 -1 3.0/3 +666
139 115 42
10 Demolito 2020-10-10 x64 2675 +1 -1 +1 3.0/3 +536
220 128 31
11 S_XPro-NN 1.0 64 (1Bk) 2800 +1 -1 +1 3.0/3 +666
235 109 36
12 Cfish 11a 64 NUMA (sb) 2800 +1 -1 -1 3.0/3 +583
236 120 37
13 RubiChess 1.7.3 (TCEC )x64 2675 -1 +1 +1 3.0/3 +641
238 137 35
14 Stockfish 210820Net2 NNUE 2900 +1 -1 -1 3.0/3 +716
234 125 40
15 Heron impossible 1 x32 2675 -1 -1 +1 3.0/3 +641
239 133 43
16 Houdini 1.03 x64 2_CPU2 2675 -1 +1 -1 3.0/3 +583
237 141 44
17 HekaStockfishNUlg 280920 2900 -1 +1 +½ 2.5/3 +146
153 111 20
18 CorChess NNUE 1.3 290920. 2900 -1 +1 +½ 2.5/3 +146
156 119 21
19 S_XPro DS 040320 x64 3bks 2800 -1 +1 -½ 2.5/3 +146
154 126 22
20 Fischerov NNUE 7.7050920b 2900 -1 +1 -½ 2.5/3 +146
152 146 17
21 Brainfish 210520 64 (sb) 2900 +1 -1 -½ 2.5/3 +112
157 147 18
22 Chi-chi x64 2800 -1 -1 +½ 2.5/3 +129
149 150 19
23 Stockfish 280720 NE(Pham) 2900 -1 -½ +1 2.5/3 +29
148 48 45
24 Stockfish 110920 NNUE x64 2900 -1 +1 +½ 2.5/3 +196
151 145 26
25 Stockfish 281020 NNUE-DV 2900 +1 -½ +1 2.5/3 +196
144 53 106
26 Stockfish 060820 NE Ndchp 2900 +1 -1 -½ 2.5/3 +187
242 113 24
27 Stockfish 020316 64(Snicolet) 2700 +1 -1 +½ 2.5/3 +129
241 112 28
28 LeelaNNUE3v0.21.0-fish (SF) 2700 +1 +1 -½ 2.5/3 +112
240 159 27
29 LeelaNNUE1v0.21.0-fish (SF) 2700 -1 +1 -0 2.0/3 -47
160 114 2
30 Equinox 2.02 x64mp 2675 +1 -1 -0 2.0/3 -104
176 116 6
31 Rybka 6 Cluster x64 2675 +1 +1 -0 2.0/3 -104
165 117 10
32 Tiger SF 170620 (4bks) T 2800 +1 +1 -0 2.0/3 -12
173 161 3
33 Deep Shredder 12 x64 2700 -1 +1 -0 2.0/3 -12
174 168 1
34 Lc0 v0.26.2 (dnnl) 2700 +1 -1 -0 2.0/3 -12
164 169 4
35 Rodent IV V0.26 64-bit . 2675 -1 +1 -0 2.0/3 -37
175 127 13
36 Crystal-NN 071119 64. 2800 +1 -1 -0 2.0/3 -29
171 162 11
37 SlowChess Blitz Classic 2.2 2700 +1 -1 +0 2.0/3 +3
178 163 12
38 Rybka 1.0 Beta x64 (Tactics) 2650 +1 +1 -0 2.0/3 +198
219 124 7
39 weiss 0.8 2400 +1 -1 +0 2.0/3 +353
221 167 8
40 Stockfish+NNUE 130720 64. 2900 -1 +1 +0 2.0/3 +40
222 166 14
41 Igel 2.6.0 64 (2 core) 2700 -1 +1 -0 2.0/3 -12
244 172 5
42 BBC 1.3 + SF NNUE 2700 +1 -1 +0 2.0/3 -12
247 170 9
43 Open Tal v1.2 Pure Tal x64 . 2675 -1 +1 -0 2.0/3 -37
246 121 15
44 Raven 1.00 2675 +1 -1 +0 2.0/3 -104
248 122 16
45 FabChess v1.12.6 2400 +1 -1 -0 2.0/3 +387
249 177 23
46 HekaStockfishNUsm 280920 2900 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
193 106 49
47 Honey XI-r1 x64 (4bks) 2800 -½ +1 + 1.5/2
74 158 56
48 Stockfish Polyglot 12 NNUE 2900 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
260 23 72
49 Stockfish+NNUE 190720 64. 2900 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
195 76 46
50 Stockfish+NNUE 110720 64. 2900 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
185 51 73
51 Stockfish+NNUE 100720 64. 2900 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
186 50 86
52 Stockfish 141020 NNUE (DV) 2900 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
196 87 54
53 Stockfish 241020 x64 NNUE 2900 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
250 25 93
54 Raubfisch GTZ22c_nn_sl2 2900 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
197 89 52
55 SF180820MZ x64 NNUE 2900 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
187 77 75
56 DON 14-04-2020.64 (NNUE) 2800 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
180 94 47
57 HumanEngine 151119 64 T 2800 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
198 84 58
58 S_MCTSL 220319 32. 2800 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
191 83 57
59 Komodo 11.2.2 64-bit (Dyno) 2700 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
189 62 97
60 HIARCS 13.2 MP (Active) 2700 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
200 85 61
61 DON 301215.64 (syzygy) 2700 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
194 96 60
62 Wasp 4.0 x64 (1bk) 2700 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
192 59 85
63 FabChess v1.16 x64 2675 -1 -½ + 1.5/2
201 98 70
64 Stockfish 070820B NU Vieri 2900 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
182 78 82
65 Cfish 261020 64 NUMA NU 2900 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
183 72 91
66 Crafty 25.2 (ECO) 2675 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
202 80 81
67 LousChess 210420 64-X 2900 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
190 88 83
68 Cfish 170820 64 NUMA(NE) 2900 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
179 82 92
69 Bluefish XIr5 x32 2800 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
199 95 84
70 SugaR v5.4b 64-bit. 2675 +1 +½ - 1.5/2
217 81 63
71 Betsabe II 2020 wb64 2625 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
181 90 105
72 Cfish 170820 64 NUMA(NU) 2900 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
228 65 48
73 Raubfisch X43d_nn_sl 2bks 2900 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
227 79 50
74 WyldChess vDrunk1 wb64 2400 +½ -1 - 1.5/2
47 223 90
75 CorChess NNUE 1.2 050920a 2900 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
230 86 55
76 Stockfish+NNUE 150720 64. 2900 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
224 49 89
77 ShashChess 13.2 NNUE 2900 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
229 55 99
78 Stockfish 070820 NU Gesch 2900 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
225 64 88
79 Raubfisch GTZ22d_nn_sl2b 2900 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
226 73 87
80 Engine X .win64 (Beta) 2675 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
231 66 100
81 Keyvan 2708 . 2675 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
243 70 66
82 Brainfish_GD 230920 64 2bk 2900 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
274 68 64
83 Cfish 060720 64 NUMA (sb) 2800 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
253 58 67
84 6.00 (/Nemorino ) NNUE x64 2800 +1 +½ - 1.5/2
251 57 69
85 HIARCS 13.1 MP (Solid) 2700 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
275 60 62
86 CorChess NNUE 1.2 050920. 2900 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
273 75 51
87 Stockfish 12 x64 NNUE 2900 +1 +½ - 1.5/2
271 52 79
88 McCain X1 2900 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
261 67 78
89 Raubfisch X43c_nn_sl (2bks) 2900 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
265 54 76
90 Zappa Mexico II w64 wb 2650 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
256 71 74
91 Oki Maguro v12-R1 NNUE 4 2900 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
266 92 65
92 Moonfish 130320 64 2900 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
258 91 68
93 CorChess NNUE 170820Tga 2900 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
268 101 53
94 Brainfish 130118 64 (sb) 2800 -1 -½ + 1.5/2
262 56 95
95 Black Diamond XIr5 x64 2800 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
269 69 94
96 rofChade 2.3 NOP x64 2700 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
264 61 103
97 LeelaOrionv0.21.0-fish-v0.7. 2700 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
263 103 59
98 Arasan 22.1 x64 (UCI) 2675 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
259 63 104
99 CorChess NNUE 140820. 2900 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
272 102 77
100 Godel 7.0 x64 2675 -1 +½ + 1.5/2
270 104 80
101 CorChess NNUE 170820. 2900 +1 -½ + 1.5/2
267 93 102
102 CorChess-NN 071119 64 2900 -1 +½ - 1.5/2
257 99 101
103 Beef 0.2.2 x64 2700 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
252 97 96
104 SlowChess Blitz Classic 1.6 2675 +1 -½ - 1.5/2
254 100 98
105 Delocto 2300 -½ -1 + 1.5/2
155 245 71
106 Honey v12-R1 NNUE (4bks) 2900 -1 +½ -0 1.5/3
188 46 25
107 Tucano v9.00 wb-64 2700 -1 +0 + 1.0/2
205 2 120
108 Critter 1.6a 64-bit. 2700 -1 -0 + 1.0/2
215 1 115
109 Xiphos 0.6 NO-POPCNT 2800 -1 +0 + 1.0/2
210 11 161
110 Tactico Olmos 4MP 64Bit. 2700 -1 +0 + 1.0/2
203 5 204
111 Ethereal 12.75 NNUE x64 2900 +1 -0 - 1.0/2
209 17 125
112 RubiChess 1.8 (Legacy) x64 2700 -1 +0 - 1.0/2
211 27 114
113 Stockfish 030820 NE(Vande) 2900 -1 +0 - 1.0/2
208 26 145
114 Deep HIARCS 14 WCSC 2700 -1 -0 + 1.0/2
216 29 112
115 Lc0 v0.26.3-rc2 (blas) 2700 +1 -0 - 1.0/2
276 9 108
116 Cheese 2.2 64 bits. 2675 -1 +0 - 1.0/2
214 30 133
117 IvanHoe-B 64c8t(Dyno) 2675 +1 -0 - 1.0/2
207 31 122
118 SF+NNUE AN 200826unemb. 2900 +0 -1 + 1.0/2
8 256 147
119 CorChess NNUE 1.3 240920. 2900 +1 -0 - 1.0/2
232 18 146
120 LeelaIgel7v0.21.0-fish-v0.7. 2700 +1 +0 - 1.0/2
292 12 107
121 SugaR Tactical_R x64. 2675 +1 -0 + 1.0/2
206 43 123
122 McB 9.6 64JScript(Tactical) 2675 -1 +0 + 1.0/2
212 44 117
123 LeelaToga v0.21.0- -v0.5. 2675 -1 +0 - 1.0/2
288 6 121
124 Benjamin 2.0 (Lethal)WB 2660 +1 -0 - 1.0/2
218 38 128
125 Stockfish 200318 64 (Learn) 2900 -1 +0 + 1.0/2
285 14 111
126 SOLIDOR 240920 x64 2800 +1 -0 - 1.0/2
233 19 166
127 Stash v17.0 x64 2675 +1 -0 + 1.0/2
213 35 185
128 Sapeli 1.90 2660 -1 +0 + 1.0/2
284 10 124
129 Devel 3.2.9 2625 +1 -0 - 1.0/2
245 7 182
130 Olithink 5.3.3 w64 2250 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
2 252 160
131 Minic 2.48 NNUE x64 2800 -1 +0 + 1.0/2
287 3 162
132 Lc0 v0.26.2-rc1 (blas) 2700 -1 +0 + 1.0/2
281 4 163
133 Tactico 2011 x64 Blitz. 2675 -1 +0 + 1.0/2
293 15 116
134 Olithink 5.3.5 x64 WB 2300 -0 +1 - 1.0/2
4 281 164
135 Koivisto 64 20200903 2300 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
5 244 211
136 Stockfish 010820 NE (Orze) 2900 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
7 278 181
137 Igel 2.5.0 64. 2675 +1 -0 + 1.0/2
283 13 155
138 Olithink 5.8.9 x64 WB 2400 +1 -0 + 1.0/2
278 8 183
139 BBChess 1.3b Win_x64 bk 2300 +0 -1 + 1.0/2
9 276 189
140 Obender v2.08 WB 2200 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
6 259 213
141 Crafty 25.6 Tactics w64 2700 +1 -0 + 1.0/2
282 16 170
142 Olithink v5.62 WB 2350 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
3 280 203
143 Clunk (32-bit) 1.1.aa51961 2200 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
1 277 207
144 Orion 0.7 x64 2650 -0 +1 - 1.0/2
25 234 148
145 Stockfish 060620 64. 2900 +1 -0 + 1.0/2
279 24 113
146 Fischerov NNUE 7.7050920. 2900 +1 -0 + 1.0/2
290 20 119
147 BrainLearnNNUE 1.1 64a 2900 +1 +0 - 1.0/2
286 21 118
148 Velvet v1.0.0 2650 +0 -1 + 1.0/2
23 279 144
149 Vice 1.0 2350 +0 +1 - 1.0/2
22 262 167
150 Fat Fritz #2 (lc0) engine 2800 -1 +0 + 1.0/2
280 22 172
151 Beef 0.2 x64 2650 +0 +1 - 1.0/2
24 250 186
152 Comet B54 Pentium 4 wb 2500 +0 -1 + 1.0/2
20 257 187
153 AICE 0.99.2 2500 +0 +1 - 1.0/2
17 261 190
154 Combusken 1.3.1 x64 2400 +0 -1 + 1.0/2
19 251 191
155 Tactico 3350b w32 ProLG. 2700 +½ +½ - 1.0/2
105 184 137
156 Donna 4.1 2500 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
18 258 209
157 Koivisto 64 2.0 (2 core) 2400 -0 -1 + 1.0/2
21 286 179
158 Combusken 1.2.0 x64 2300 +1 -0 + 1.0/2
204 47 177
159 LeelaCrafyv0.21.0-fish-v0.7. 2700 +1 -0 + 1.0/2
291 28 184
160 Sabertooth 0.1.4b 2200 +0 -1 + 1.0/2
29 240 130
161 Ethereal 12.75 x64 2800 +1 -0 - 1.0/2
295 32 109
162 Minic 2.50 NNUE x64 (core2) 2800 +1 +0 - 1.0/2
298 36 131
163 Deep Junior 13.3 2700 -1 +0 - 1.0/2
296 37 132
164 Alfil 7.3 x32 2300 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
34 291 134
165 Cicada 2000 -0 +1 - 1.0/2
31 237 214
166 Stockfish 290720 NE(mstem) 2900 +1 -0 + 1.0/2
294 40 126
167 Xpnt 091007 w32 2400 +1 +0 + 1.0/2
255 39 149
168 Stash v18.1x64 2700 +1 -0 + 1.0/2
297 33 169
169 Lc0 v0.26.0-rc1 (blas) 2700 -1 +0 - 1.0/2
300 34 168
170 Asymptote 0.8 gnu x64 2700 +1 +0 - 1.0/2
277 42 141
171 Xpnt 060602 Wb 2350 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
36 253 180
172 Ethereal 12.50 x64 2700 +1 -0 - 1.0/2
299 41 150
173 Googleplex Starthinker 1.7 2400 -0 +1 - 1.0/2
32 269 210
174 FireFly v2.7.0 (x64) 2300 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
33 297 192
175 MagiC-engine x32 2200 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
35 254 206
176 Sargon 1978 V1.00 2000 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
30 270 212
177 ChessMatrix 1.0.5 2300 +1 +0 - 1.0/2
289 45 158
178 Combusken 1.0.0 x64 2250 -0 +1 - 1.0/2
37 296 205
179 Alaric 707 x32 UCI 2400 -0 +1 - 1.0/2
68 235 157
180 Teki 2. 2350 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
56 236 171
181 Stockfish 010820 NE Vande 2900 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
71 255 136
182 Pro Deo 1.4 WB 2625 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
64 260 129
183 NoC 4.20 2400 -0 +1 - 1.0/2
65 274 138
184 Lc0 v0.25.1+git.691777 . 2700 +½ -½ - 1.0/2
223 155 159
185 BullDog v1.0 wb 2660 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
50 294 127
186 Stockfish 160526bt 64(tactic) 2650 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
51 271 151
187 Topple 0.7.5 x64 (Legacy( 2600 +0 +1 - 1.0/2
55 266 152
188 WChess 1.6 wb 2500 +0 -1 + 1.0/2
106 267 193
189 Nebiyu 1.5 NN wb 2300 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
59 299 139
190 Abrok 6.0 Beta 2500 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
67 290 153
191 Amyan 1.46DC w64 2400 +0 +1 - 1.0/2
58 287 154
192 Xpnt 060522 Wb 2250 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
62 263 174
193 Koivisto 64 3.0 (2 core) 2500 -0 +1 - 1.0/2
46 268 188
194 Adam 3.3 2200 +0 -1 + 1.0/2
61 264 200
195 Pro Deo Benjamin v1.0 2660 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
49 289 196
196 Winter 0.9 x64 2650 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
52 285 195
197 Weiss 1.2 x64 2600 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
54 265 208
198 Soldat 4 Beta WB 2400 -0 +1 - 1.0/2
57 298 199
199 Weakfish XI-r2 x64 2400 -0 +1 + 1.0/2
69 295 198
200 CmcChess 2.6 x64 2200 +0 -1 - 1.0/2
60 282 194
Tony P.
Posts: 216
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:30 pm
Location: Russia

Re: NNUE vs New Engines Swiss...No Changes?

Post by Tony P. »

2-3 games per engine are extremely small samples :D Hundreds of games are needed per engine for statistically significant conclusions.

Let's take the SF, Nemorino, and Igel rating progress on FGRL 60-minute (the complete list as of Nov 5) as examples (the numbers in parentheses are standard deviations). Each of the engine versions has played at least 1500 games at this time control that's considered long despite 1 core allocated per engine.

SF 10: 3369 (7)
SF 11: 3393 (7)
SF 12 [NNUE]: 3445 (10)
SF 200813*: 3456 (13)

* with net 82215d0fd0df that won TCEC S19 divP.

SF 200813 is +63 to SF11, which is merely +24 to SF10.

So NNUE has had a smaller effect than expected on SF itself. However, it has improved weaker engines by a ton:

Nemorino 4.00: 2946 (13)
Nemorino 5.00: 2972 (13), +26 to 4.00
Nemorino 6.00 [NNUE]: 3274 (8), +302 to 5.00

Igel 2.4.0: 2989 (13)
Igel 2.5.0: 3012 (13), +23 to 2.4.0
Igel 2.7.0 NNUE: 3170 (9), +158 to 2.5.0
Igel 2.8.0 NNUE: 3203 (10), +33 to 2.7.0, +191 to 2.5.0

Let's wait for extensive public tests of Komodo Dragon. It may turn out a bit stronger than Lc0 already :shock: That said, I believe it's hard, if not impossible, to beat SF by a lot by imitating it. If some engine does crush SF, that will mean that the authors have found an even more efficient idea or network architecture.