You need to join my channel. I do this kind of testing for a living.towforce wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:53 ammwyoung wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:49 amYestowforce wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:48 am
Are you sure about this? Remember TCEC deliberately imbalances openings to reduce the probability of drawn games. Are you saying that chess computers with state the art hardware and software are getting 95% draw rates at blitz time controls? If so, which matches produced this result?
In that case, an important new test is needed: top computers at blitz time control (ponder off) v top computers at long time control (ponder on).
Perfect chess engine elo ( 32 men TB) can be within 200 of Stocfish in Tcec LTC conditions
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Re: Perfect chess engine elo ( 32 men TB) can be within 200 of Stocfish in Tcec LTC conditions
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Re: Perfect chess engine elo ( 32 men TB) can be within 200 of Stocfish in Tcec LTC conditions
mwyoung wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:54 amYou need to join my channel. I do this kind of testing for a living.towforce wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:53 ammwyoung wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:49 amYestowforce wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:48 am
Are you sure about this? Remember TCEC deliberately imbalances openings to reduce the probability of drawn games. Are you saying that chess computers with state the art hardware and software are getting 95% draw rates at blitz time controls? If so, which matches produced this result?
In that case, an important new test is needed: top computers at blitz time control (ponder off) v top computers at long time control (ponder on).
Sounds very interesting!
Would it be fair to say that if an era of drawn computer chess arose that this would represent a threat to your income level?
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Re: Perfect chess engine elo ( 32 men TB) can be within 200 of Stocfish in Tcec LTC conditions
Yes, and how about a 96% draw rate at blitz!mwyoung wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:49 amYes! You need to see my Lc0 vs Allie match. It was a draw fest!towforce wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:48 am
Are you sure about this? Remember TCEC deliberately imbalances openings to reduce the probability of drawn games. Are you saying that chess computers with state the art hardware and software are getting 95% draw rates at blitz time controls? If so, which matches produced this result?
"You're playing not to lose, Josh" Searching for Bobby Fischer.
Re: Allie v0.5 + 320x24.J13B.2-swa-178000 vs. Lc0 + 320x24.J13B.2-swa-178000 5m+5s
Post by mwyoung » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:33 pm
DESKTOP-CORSAIR, Blitz 5m+5s 0
1 Lc0 v0.22.0 +15 +3/=67/-0 52.14% 36.5/70
2 Allie v0.5-dev -15 +0/=67/-3 47.86% 33.5/70
http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... .5#p813036
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
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Re: Perfect chess engine elo ( 32 men TB) can be within 200 of Stocfish in Tcec LTC conditions
Here is the bottom line. Draw rate is not a indication of perfect chess play!mwyoung wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:27 amYes, and how about a 96% draw rate at blitz!mwyoung wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:49 amYes! You need to see my Lc0 vs Allie match. It was a draw fest!towforce wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:48 am
Are you sure about this? Remember TCEC deliberately imbalances openings to reduce the probability of drawn games. Are you saying that chess computers with state the art hardware and software are getting 95% draw rates at blitz time controls? If so, which matches produced this result?
"You're playing not to lose, Josh" Searching for Bobby Fischer.
Re: Allie v0.5 + 320x24.J13B.2-swa-178000 vs. Lc0 + 320x24.J13B.2-swa-178000 5m+5s
Post by mwyoung » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:33 pm
DESKTOP-CORSAIR, Blitz 5m+5s 0
1 Lc0 v0.22.0 +15 +3/=67/-0 52.14% 36.5/70
2 Allie v0.5-dev -15 +0/=67/-3 47.86% 33.5/70
http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... .5#p813036
You assume too much.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
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Re: Perfect chess engine elo ( 32 men TB) can be within 200 of Stocfish in Tcec LTC conditions
I just want to point out that you are the one who assumes the most.Here is the bottom line. Draw rate is not a indication of perfect chess play!
You assume too much.
What is claimed more or less is that chess might already be solved (or in case of specific weak claim in this thread that it's within 200 ELO from godlike engine under TCEC time controls). The solution is to run SF for a long time on good hardware with maybe minimal opening book.
As you don't have a proof this is not a solution and we don't have a proof it is the solution we can look at various evidence to estimate which hypothesis is more likely. Here is evidence that chess is already solved (I am more interested in this claim that 200ELO as I think this one is just too boring):
-draw rate increases with hardware/computation time
-no one is able to win a corr game anymore against even slightly competent opponent who doesn't gamble in the opening (and even that is very rarely enough)
-no one is able to produce a series of moves that beat current SF in main line openings (assuming something like depth of 75)
-proving it's not a solution is easy (just show an example of SF at big depths losing to a series of moves); that no one is able to come with even one example makes the hypothesis more likely to be true
while all you have going for your is your feelings and wishful thinking. All you can say is that there is no proof it's the solution (or that SF is within 200ELO) but then again, you don't have a proof it isn't either.
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Re: Perfect chess engine elo ( 32 men TB) can be within 200 of Stocfish in Tcec LTC conditions
OneTrickPony wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:08 pmI just want to point out that you are the one who assumes the most.Here is the bottom line. Draw rate is not a indication of perfect chess play!
You assume too much.
What is claimed more or less is that chess might already be solved (or in case of specific weak claim in this thread that it's within 200 ELO from godlike engine under TCEC time controls). The solution is to run SF for a long time on good hardware with maybe minimal opening book.
As you don't have a proof this is not a solution and we don't have a proof it is the solution we can look at various evidence to estimate which hypothesis is more likely. Here is evidence that chess is already solved (I am more interested in this claim that 200ELO as I think this one is just too boring):
-draw rate increases with hardware/computation time
-no one is able to win a corr game anymore against even slightly competent opponent who doesn't gamble in the opening (and even that is very rarely enough)
-no one is able to produce a series of moves that beat current SF in main line openings (assuming something like depth of 75)
-proving it's not a solution is easy (just show an example of SF at big depths losing to a series of moves); that no one is able to come with even one example makes the hypothesis more likely to be true
while all you have going for your is your feelings and wishful thinking. All you can say is that there is no proof it's the solution (or that SF is within 200ELO) but then again, you don't have a proof it isn't either.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
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Re: Perfect chess engine elo ( 32 men TB) can be within 200 of Stocfish in Tcec LTC conditions
I see it is from 2019 and that no engine is stockfish.mwyoung wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:27 amYes, and how about a 96% draw rate at blitz!mwyoung wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:49 amYes! You need to see my Lc0 vs Allie match. It was a draw fest!towforce wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:48 am
Are you sure about this? Remember TCEC deliberately imbalances openings to reduce the probability of drawn games. Are you saying that chess computers with state the art hardware and software are getting 95% draw rates at blitz time controls? If so, which matches produced this result?
"You're playing not to lose, Josh" Searching for Bobby Fischer.
Re: Allie v0.5 + 320x24.J13B.2-swa-178000 vs. Lc0 + 320x24.J13B.2-swa-178000 5m+5s
Post by mwyoung » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:33 pm
DESKTOP-CORSAIR, Blitz 5m+5s 0
1 Lc0 v0.22.0 +15 +3/=67/-0 52.14% 36.5/70
2 Allie v0.5-dev -15 +0/=67/-3 47.86% 33.5/70
http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... .5#p813036
I would like to see how many draws do we get if latest stockfish is playing against these engines with the same time control
before testing long time control against this time control.
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Re: Perfect chess engine elo ( 32 men TB) can be within 200 of Stocfish in Tcec LTC conditions
Winning from start advantage is so small in chess that you will never find it against very strong engines. Likelywise, initial touch advantage in soccer is not a forced win advantage ( both scanerios, unless opponents do errors).
That is why, my first assumption of chess is draw. Some people wont believe it, it is up them, they can believe whatever they like.
In science, no one can show how big is the sun with measuring tape but I believe the sun is bigger than the earth due to significant amount of collateral data/evidences.
That is why, my first assumption of chess is draw. Some people wont believe it, it is up them, they can believe whatever they like.
In science, no one can show how big is the sun with measuring tape but I believe the sun is bigger than the earth due to significant amount of collateral data/evidences.
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Re: Perfect chess engine elo ( 32 men TB) can be within 200 of Stocfish in Tcec LTC conditions
That's a very good analogy.Nay Lin Tun wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:07 amno one can show how big is the sun with measuring tape but I believe the sun is bigger than the earth
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Re: Perfect chess engine elo ( 32 men TB) can be within 200 of Stocfish in Tcec LTC conditions
BTW SF is so far unbeaten in 5/5 blitz at CCC! The NNUE version. And classical is second .
Jouni