What in the world can that be?!

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Dann Corbit
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What in the world can that be?!

Post by Dann Corbit » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:27 pm


In my database, this position has the very unusual designation of "HD 4" in the Opening field.
I guess it is a mistake, but I was wondering if there is a name for the opening terminating in this position.
It gets played a lot, I have more than 1000 games with this position.
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Ajedrecista
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Re: What in the world can that be?!

Post by Ajedrecista » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:51 pm

Hello Dann:

I get:

Code: Select all

A86   Dutch: Hort-Antoshin System
After playing 1.- d4, f5; 2.- c4, Nf6; 3.- g3, d6; 4.- Bg2, c6 in Arena 2.0.1 GUI. 'Hort-Antoshin System' search in Google returns lots of results. It is possible that Arena uses a list similar to the next one, which contains:

Code: Select all

*Version=1.17
*Author= Christopher Conkie
[...]
{A86   Dutch: Hort-Antoshin System}1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 d6 4.Bg2 c6 5.Nc3 Qc7
[...]
The Encyclopedia of Chess Openings does not give names to the openings. In the Volume A of the edition of 1979: 1.- d4, f5; 2.- c4, Nf6; 3.- g3, d6; 4.- Bg2, c6 is the first line under A86 code, which agrees with Arena.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.

Charly
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Re: What in the world can that be?!

Post by Charly » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:02 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:27 pm

In my database, this position has the very unusual designation of "HD 4" in the Opening field.
I guess it is a mistake, but I was wondering if there is a name for the opening terminating in this position.
It gets played a lot, I have more than 1000 games with this position.
Hi Dann,

I have the book "Winning with the Dutch [Defense]" by International Master Robert Bellin (ISBN 0-7134-5760-0) and it classified as Leningrad Variation, Main line, which occurs after :

1 d4 f5 2 g3 Kf6 3 Bg2 g6 4 Kf3 Bg7 5 0-0 0-0 6 c4 d6 and it usually continues with 7 Kc3 c6

In the diagram you showed, it seems that Black still haven't play g6 thus, and castling are still to come.
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Re: What in the world can that be?!

Post by Stephen Ham » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:15 pm

Bonjour Charly,

You've set up the wrong position. Indeed, your moves involve a Black fianchetto leading to a Leningrad Dutch. However, that is NOT the position that Dann provided. Please re-read his post.

¡Hola! Ajedrecista. You're correct that after the "standard" 5 Nc3 Qc7 the position is indeed the Hort-Antoshin Variation. However, Black need not play 5...Qc7. Instead, after 5...g6 6 Nf3 Bg7, we have a Leningrad Variation.

All the best,
-Steve-
Last edited by Stephen Ham on Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Charly
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Re: What in the world can that be?!

Post by Charly » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:21 pm

Stephen Ham wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:15 pm
Bonjour Charly,

You've set up the wrong position. Indeed, your moves involve a Black fianchetto leading to a Leningrad Dutch. However, that is NOT the position that Dann provided. Please re-read his post.

All the best,
-Steve-
Bonjour Stephen,

The position Dann showed is the basis of the Leningrad system in the Dutch. It is obvious here that g6 is going to be played.

I myself play sometimes this system. Once you played c6 & d6 with f5, g6 is very common.
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Re: What in the world can that be?!

Post by Stephen Ham » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:35 pm

Bonjour Charly,

Again, you're discussing a variation that does not exist on the board.

Yes, Black can, and perhaps should fianchetto next. This would then, and only then, transpose into a Leningrad Variation. But until/unless that Black fianchetto is played, it is NOT a Leningrad Variation.

Also, it is NOT obvious how Black will continue. For example, Black commonly plays here 5...Qc7, which is the Hort-Antoshin Variation.

Conclusion: The opening's nomenclature is dependent upon how Black continues.

All the best,
-Steve-

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Re: What in the world can that be?!

Post by Charly » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:39 pm

Stephen Ham wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:35 pm
Bonjour Charly,

Again, you're discussing a variation that does not exist on the board.

Yes, Black can, and perhaps should fianchetto next. This would then, and only then, transpose into a Leningrad Variation. But until/unless that Black fianchetto is played, it is NOT a Leningrad Variation.

Also, it is NOT obvious how Black will continue. For example, Black commonly plays here 5...Qc7, which is the Hort-Antoshin Variation.

Conclusion: The opening's nomenclature is dependent upon how Black continues.

All the best,
-Steve-
agreed.
I should have said : this COULD be a Leningrad variation.
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supersharp77
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Re: What in the world can that be?!

Post by supersharp77 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:33 pm

Charly wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:21 pm
Stephen Ham wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:15 pm
Bonjour Charly,

You've set up the wrong position. Indeed, your moves involve a Black fianchetto leading to a Leningrad Dutch. However, that is NOT the position that Dann provided. Please re-read his post.

All the best,
-Steve-
Bonjour Stephen,

The position Dann showed is the basis of the Leningrad system in the Dutch. It is obvious here that g6 is going to be played.

I myself play sometimes this system. Once you played c6 & d6 with f5, g6 is very common.
This position is somewhat rare....I call it a Dutch-Flex or Possible Dutch Hedgehog with a possible Leningrad Dutch setup..
Position could use some 'Deep Analysis' White should have a edge but is quite double edged... :) :wink:


[Event "Dutch Flex Line-Leningrad-Hedgehog"]
[Site "SW USA"]
[Date "2020.10.26"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Player 1"]
[Black "Player #2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A86"]
[WhiteElo "2000"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[Annotator "Ross-SF SE-3"]
[PlyCount "24"]
[TimeControl "40/180+7:30/60+7:60+7"]



Without a doubt this line could use some Deep Computer Analysis...my chess engines avoid these Dutch positions like the Plague for the most part...rarely to never do I see this line explored in chess engine games or matches..

Pgn games file...
http://www.mediafire.com/file/s29k4x77h ... es.7z/file

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Re: What in the world can that be?!

Post by Dann Corbit » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:31 pm

That position popped up on a query meant to expose positions which have a small proportion of draws.
The number of wins and losses far outnumbers the draw count, which is very interesting.
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Re: What in the world can that be?!

Post by Dann Corbit » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:42 pm

Your file also shows the draw rarity leaning:

Code: Select all

White Wins   :     33 (42.3 %)
Black Wins   :     27 (34.6 %)
Draws        :     18 (23.1 %)
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

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