Ethereal question ... with or without NNUE is unclear!

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Andrew,

a bit unclear for myself.

On github the current available version is without NNUE.

On RWBC with NNUE:
https://rwbc-chess.de/download.htm

So, what should I use for the next official tourney?
Ethereal with or without NNUE?

Two months time (for the next FCP Tourney) but I like it to have all information a longer time before I start the next tourney.
So I can test a little bit on a second i9-10900 system.

Best
Frank

PS: Really a strong work you do here (Genius work).
I think at the moment Ehtereal is fighting with Komodo for place 2.
Nice to have your engine, have many thanks for it!!

[Graham Banks]

For now, I stick with non-NNUE Ethereal.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Graham,

I think it make sense to used that what the programmer offer for us.
Maybe the next Ethereal is available with NNUE.

Fact is:
For my next tourney I will used the strongest available Ethereal, so it's a bit unclear!

Keep up the good work you do all the years!



Best
Frank

[Tony P.]

Fwiw, the zip on RWBC is intended for CPUs that support SSE4.1 but don't support popcnt. Guenther made the binary for his hardware and kindly shared it on RWBC, which I'm grateful for because my CPU is exactly such.

For CPUs that don't support SSE4.1 or do support popcnt, compile from the Ethereal 12.75 SF-NNUE source code, then add the path to sf12.nnue (from the RWBC zip; or any other NNUE file) through the UCI option 'EvalFile'. The RWBC compile will work on newer CPUs but be slower than a popcnt[+AVX2+pext] compile from the source.

There's an option to run both versions, with and without NNUE, to compare them like TCEC is doing now in the 'SF NNUE vs Classical' bonus and used to have classical and MCTS Komodo versions side to side in divP. Ethereal NNUE won't be different enough from SF if she uses the SF12 net, though.

[Guenther]

Fwiw, the zip on RWBC is intended for CPUs that support SSE4.1 but don't support popcnt. Guenther made the binary for his hardware and kindly shared it on RWBC, which I'm grateful for because my CPU is exactly such.

For CPUs that don't support SSE4.1 or do support popcnt, compile from the Ethereal 12.75 SF-NNUE source code, then add the path to sf12.nnue (from the RWBC zip; or any other NNUE file) through the UCI option 'EvalFile'. The RWBC compile will work on newer CPUs but be slower than a popcnt[+AVX2+pext] compile from the source.

There's an option to run both versions, with and without NNUE, to compare them like TCEC is doing now in the 'SF NNUE vs Classical' bonus and used to have classical and MCTS Komodo versions side to side in divP. Ethereal NNUE won't be different enough from SF if she uses the SF12 net, though.

@Tony
Thanks for the explanations to Frank, you are welcome :)

@Frank
You should always first look at the XB/UCI chronology, if there is no entry with a download from my site you won't need to look there.
For Ethereal there is none! The download site has compilations either for programs, which were not compiled at all at the time
I added them (then they are also listed in the chronology!) or compilations for hardware like mine, which isn't supported sometimes,
but the compilation info is always there, one just has to read it.

It seems you also overlooked the inofficial announcement from Andrew for the SF-NNUE version. Below is the post with download link for binaries he gave and it simply contains none for my hardware. In doubt what to use you should perhaps ask the author.

http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 10#p865280

This is not needed, if you compile binaries yourself, as explained by Tony. He also gave the link to the source for the SF-NNUE version.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Guenther,

thanks for your explanation.
It's clear now for myself.

So many things on my list I have to check.
Often to many things ... with the reason I am in confusion.

Best for you ...
Have a nice day and thanks for the work you do again!!

Frank

[AndrewGrant]

Official Ethereal does not contain NNUE. It has some of my own NN inventions, but its not using an "NNUE" a la Stockfish.
There is an Ethereal branch which contains the ability to run Stockfish NNUE files. I did that, and shared it, to show how absurd it is.

You are free to use either one of course. However, if you use the NNUE branch, I BEG that you mark the engine as "Ethereal XX.XX SF-NNUE".
I will say that I cannot promise that the NNUE branch works perfectly. Ipman already had some issues which required him to add -restart to cutechess.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Andrew,

in this case I will start with your latest official version start of January 2021.
Not with the Stockfish NNUE file.

I think the best solution!
Thanks for your answere!

Best
Frank

[Alayan]

As an Ethereal dev, I'll chime in and say the regular Ethereal 12.75 (or newer) should compete.

The "SF NNUE" branch has some interesting properties. Demonstrating how easy it is to copy NNUE and giving one way to assess how much of the difference of strength between engine comes from eval vs search (the search elo advantage from SF vs Ethereal isn't that impressive, especially considering Eth's search isn't tuned for NNUE, it's not much tuned at all).

But it's a Stockfish derivative and lacks the originality of regular Ethereal.

Ethereal's evaluation has its weaknesses despite all the improvements we did, but it's what makes it unique. I personally think that NNUE is a pandora box when it comes to engine originality, and that a bunch of "Stockfish but worse" engines are not interesting.

[AndrewGrant]

As an Ethereal dev, I'll chime in and say the regular Ethereal 12.75 (or newer) should compete.

The "SF NNUE" branch has some interesting properties. Demonstrating how easy it is to copy NNUE and giving one way to assess how much of the difference of strength between engine comes from eval vs search (the search elo advantage from SF vs Ethereal isn't that impressive, especially considering Eth's search isn't tuned for NNUE, it's not much tuned at all).

But it's a Stockfish derivative and lacks the originality of regular Ethereal.

Ethereal's evaluation has its weaknesses despite all the improvements we did, but it's what makes it unique. I personally think that NNUE is a pandora box when it comes to engine originality, and that a bunch of "Stockfish but worse" engines are not interesting.

+1