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87% of the poll voted that SF will win Tcec Sufi 19.

https://talkchess.com/viewtopic.php?t=75299

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Re: 87% of the poll voted that SF will win Tcec Sufi 19.

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:03 pm
by peter
CMCanavessi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:58 pm Leela leading now after an amazing game 33. Check it out if you can, it was really cool. Reverse is playing right now.
After 50 moves it looks like one more 1:1 pair:

Ongoing:
[pgn]
[Event "TCEC Season 19 - Superfinal"]
[Site "https://tcec-chess.com"]
[Date "2020.10.05"]
[Round "34.1"]
[White "Stockfish 202009282242_nn-baeb"]
[Black "LCZero v0.26.3-rc1_T60.SV.JH.9"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B48"]
[WhiteElo "3564"]
[BlackElo "3542"]
[PlyCount "103"]
[EventDate "2020.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6 7. Qd2 Nf6 8.
O-O-O Bb4 9. f3 Ne5 10. Nb3 b5 11. Qe1 Rb8 12. Qg3 O-O 13. Bd4 Bd6 {book} 14.
f4 Nh5 15. fxe5 Nxg3 16. exd6 Qxd6 17. hxg3 Qxg3 18. Rh3 Qf4+ 19. Be3 Qc7 20.
Bc5 Bb7 21. Bd6 Qb6 22. Nc5 Bc6 23. a3 a5 24. e5 f6 25. Bxf8 Rxf8 26. Nxd7 Bxd7
27. Rxd7 b4 28. axb4 axb4 29. Nd1 f5 30. Rd6 Qc5 31. Rxe6 Ra8 32. Rd3 Kf7 33.
Red6 Qxe5 34. R3d4 g6 35. Bc4+ Kg7 36. Rd7+ Kh6 37. Kb1 Qa5 38. c3 Qa1+ 39. Kc2
Rb8 40. cxb4 Rxb4 41. b3 Kg5 42. Nc3 h5 43. Nb5 Qa5 44. R4d5 h4 45. R7d6 Kh5
46. Nc3 Qa7 47. Be2+ Kg5 48. Ra6 Qf7 49. Bc4 Qb7 50. Re6 Qa8 51. Ne4+ Kh5 52.
Rxf5+ *
[/pgn]

Re: 87% of the poll voted that SF will win Tcec Sufi 19.

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:21 pm
by peter
peter wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:03 pm Ongoing
Last moves I gave in manually and mistyped 51...Kh5, correct was ...Kh6.

Here's the rest of the game:
[pgn][Event "TCEC Season 19 - Superfinal"]
[Site "https://tcec-chess.com"]
[Date "2020.10.05"]
[Round "34.1"]
[White "Stockfish 202009282242_nn-bae"]
[Black "LCZero v0.26.3-rc1_T60.SV.JH."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B48"]
[WhiteElo "3564"]
[BlackElo "3542"]
[PlyCount "160"]
[EventDate "2020.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6 7. Qd2 Nf6 8.
O-O-O Bb4 9. f3 Ne5 10. Nb3 b5 11. Qe1 Rb8 12. Qg3 O-O 13. Bd4 Bd6 {book} 14.
f4 Nh5 15. fxe5 Nxg3 16. exd6 Qxd6 17. hxg3 Qxg3 18. Rh3 Qf4+ 19. Be3 Qc7 20.
Bc5 Bb7 21. Bd6 Qb6 22. Nc5 Bc6 23. a3 a5 24. e5 f6 25. Bxf8 Rxf8 26. Nxd7 Bxd7
27. Rxd7 b4 28. axb4 axb4 29. Nd1 f5 30. Rd6 Qc5 31. Rxe6 Ra8 32. Rd3 Kf7 33.
Red6 Qxe5 34. R3d4 g6 35. Bc4+ Kg7 36. Rd7+ Kh6 37. Kb1 Qa5 38. c3 Qa1+ 39. Kc2
Rb8 40. cxb4 Rxb4 41. b3 Kg5 42. Nc3 h5 43. Nb5 Qa5 44. R4d5 h4 45. R7d6 Kh5
46. Nc3 Qa7 47. Be2+ Kg5 48. Ra6 Qf7 49. Bc4 Qb7 50. Re6 Qa8 51. Ne4+ Kh6 52.
Rxf5 Qa2+ 53. Kc3 Rb8 54. g4 Qa1+ 55. Kc2 Qa2+ 56. Kd1 Qb1+ 57. Ke2 Qc2+ 58.
Ke1 Qb1+ 59. Kf2 Qc2+ 60. Be2 Rb7 61. Rff6 Kg7 62. Rxg6+ Kf8 63. Rgf6+ Rf7 64.
Rxf7+ Kxf7 65. Ng5+ Kg8 66. Nf3 Qxb3 67. Re5 Qf7 68. Kg2 Qf4 69. Rg5+ Kh8 70.
Rh5+ Kg7 71. Nxh4 Qd2 72. Re5 Qf4 73. Rd5 Qe4+ 74. Bf3 Qe1 75. Nf5+ Kf6 76. Ng3
Ke6 77. Be4 Qa1 78. g5 Qb2+ 79. Kh3 Qh8+ 80. Kg4 Qg8 1-0
[/pgn]

Re: 87% of the poll voted that SF will win Tcec Sufi 19.

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:22 pm
by MMarco
Laskos wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:19 pm So, you tackled too the issue with possible bad scaling of SV 3010 and later nets, right? Interesting, if J-92 nets scale well indeed as you found out, this Sufi might look different from expected. I might check too the scaling of J92-190 versus SV 3972mlh used in Season 18.
Yes I did a quick test to mickmick yours I found here: http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 10#p848375
I just dig it up from my computer. The results are a bit different from those I had in memory, but close enough I think!

I did the tests before J92-190 was selected for SuFi (J92-210 and J92-220 were the other nets considered).

On a rtx 2060 at 10s + 0.1s: (I can't remember the opening set. Maybe past TCEC).

Code: Select all

   # PLAYER      :  RATING  ERROR  PLAYED   (%)   CFS    W    D    L  D(%)
   1 J92-220     :    50.2   15.6     400  56.5    75  110  232   58  58.0
   2 J92-210     :    40.1   15.0     500  55.2   100  119  314   67  62.8
   3 T60-3010    :     0.0    9.3     900  44.2   ---  125  546  229  60.7

White advantage = 106.74 +/- 6.89
Draw rate (equal opponents) = 71.17 % +/- 1.82
Now at 40s + 0.4s (you had a longer time control, 60s + 0.6 and a 2070, so unfortunately this is only half of your LTC at best). I didn't do the test with J92-220 when it became clear it would be chosen for SuFi:

Code: Select all

   # PLAYER      :  RATING  ERROR  PLAYED   (%)   CFS    W    D    L  D(%)
   1 J92-210     :    32.9   10.7     240  54.6   100   39  184   17  76.7
   2 T60-3010    :     0.0   10.7     240  45.4   ---   17  184   39  76.7

White advantage = 50.42 +/- 11.32
Draw rate (equal opponents) = 82.04 % +/- 2.60
The collapse that happened at LTC in your test didn't occur here. J92-210 lost only 7 ratings points when the time control was multiplied by four. It would be surprinsing that J92-190 be scalling diffenrently than J92-210 or 220 according to JHortos.

Re: 87% of the poll voted that SF will win Tcec Sufi 19.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:56 am
by Nay Lin Tun
Still tied after 42 games. It is very likely that these two engines are within +/- 50 elo, most likely +/- 20 elo.

Thus being said, NNUE +100 elo hype was wrong against Leela.

In case, they are not equal in strength,
1. Is SF +50 elo better than Leela or
2. Is Leela + 50 elo better than SF? :mrgreen: :lol: :evil:

Re: 87% of the poll voted that SF will win Tcec Sufi 19.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:18 am
by Dann Corbit
Moving target.
They changed the Leela ratio for the this contest.

Nobody can say what the right ratio is anyway,

For that matter, both engines are moving targets.

Re: 87% of the poll voted that SF will win Tcec Sufi 19.

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:01 am
by ernest
Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:18 am
They changed the Leela ratio for the this contest.
Who says ?
Isn't the hardware the same as for TCEC 18 ?

Re: 87% of the poll voted that SF will win Tcec Sufi 19.

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:22 am
by Dann Corbit
I stand corrected.
I just checked and the hardware and time control is identical.
Not sure where I got the impression that something was changed.

Re: 87% of the poll voted that SF will win Tcec Sufi 19.

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:41 am
by ernest
Still, I wonder (and of course I am not the only one...) why Lc0 is "resisting" so well against SF NNUE in Sufi 19.

As if the NNUE improvement almost did not help under the current playing conditions. Or...?

Re: 87% of the poll voted that SF will win Tcec Sufi 19.

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:34 am
by mwyoung
ernest wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:41 am Still, I wonder (and of course I am not the only one...) why Lc0 is "resisting" so well against SF NNUE in Sufi 19.

As if the NNUE improvement almost did not help under the current playing conditions. Or...?

That is because testing has shown SF NNUE is not much stronger then Lc0. At long time controls. The confusion comes from only looking or testing at STC results. And assuming that result also applies to LTC games.

Re: 87% of the poll voted that SF will win Tcec Sufi 19.

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:21 pm
by Laskos
ernest wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:01 am
Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:18 am
They changed the Leela ratio for the this contest.
Who says ?
Isn't the hardware the same as for TCEC 18 ?
The Lc0 binaries are significantly faster now (+40%?). Also, the score now is back to almost regular: 3:1 =25 pairwise, with very high pairwise draw ratio. Maybe this pairwise draw rate is one of the reasons Elo difference seems small.
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