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Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:02 pm
by Tony P.
I understand that chess is rather a stepping stone to more relevant and challenging games (incl. 'serious games' and robotics), but I'd still appreciate a bit of positive reinforcement along the way if I went that way :lol:

Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:31 pm
by Dann Corbit
Tony P. wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:02 pm
I understand that chess is rather a stepping stone to more relevant and challenging games (incl. 'serious games' and robotics), but I'd still appreciate a bit of positive reinforcement along the way if I went that way :lol:
I don't begrudge people making money on it and even encourage it.
I have bought at least one copy of most professional chess programs and for some of them, I have bought a large number of vrsions.

Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:44 pm
by Tony P.
Thanks! :)

One of the enigmas of CC is why people were spending crazy amounts on GPUs to train Leela nets instead of figuring out an NN architecture that would play superstrong on CPUs and save the users so much hardware cost that they'd even be better off paying for the engine to get the anecdotal 'humanlike style' experience. SF NNUE has solved that problem to an extent, but stronger CPU NNs may be discovered that will rival the GPU Leela even if she improves a lot.

Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:03 am
by emadsen
Nice to hear from you, Andrew.
AndrewGrant wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:38 pm
Perhaps I am one of few that are concerned, as I've taken to doing this at a competitive level, with competition being the intent. Ethereal may have started as a pure hobby project, but its a lot deeper than that now.
I respect your choice to pursue chess engine programming at a competitive level, and support what you're doing to ensure it's a fair competition. I'm rooting for you to get to the pinnacle. If you never reach the #1 spot, know that you reached #3 (discarding clones) behind the world's most successful open source, collaboratively-built engine and the commercial brainchild of two computer chess legends (carried on by a third). That looks good on a resume!
I've worked on and off, while doing School on and off. I finally abandoned University a few years ago, as I felt that even though I was 3/4ths of the way done, it was not worth the grief. I was working for a U.S. defense company for a while, which is actually when I wrote most of Ethereal. I was not quite a full time employee, not quite an intern. I worked 40 hours a week on a salary, but the work I received was sparse. Plenty of downtime. Its when I wrote OpenBench, and its when I wrote Ethereal's tuning core.

I'm working again now -- for chess.com actually. Its a juggling act, one which I'm losing, since I can't do 60 hours of Ethereal and 40 hours of work and 20 hours of family and 40 hours of sleep. Something has to go, and I'm pretty keen on all 4.
I'm glad to hear you're working. Chess.com... very cool! You'll figure out how to manage your time. I remember my favorite college physics professor telling me, with regards to a difficult problem set, "Sometimes you have to bang your head against the wall before you get it. It's a tough subject." That's true for difficult math, physics, comp-sci- it's also true for balancing work, hobbies, friends and family, and effectively managing your time. It's one thing to learn by listening to someone lecture on a subject- passively acquiring a lot of "received wisdom"... do this, don't do that, that's the wrong technique, etc... It's another to convince yourself by doing, failing, correcting, refining, assessing, improving, etc. Technical arcana or time management, you'll figure it out for yourself.

Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:29 am
by Albert Silver
dkappe wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:42 am
AndrewGrant wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:46 am
Could you please explain it to me then? If I'm missing crucial information, I'm perfectly happy to change my view when presented with additional information which brings my current view into question.
I’m happy to explain things to someone who listens and discusses in good faith. Your posts here and in other threads demonstrate amply that is not true in your case. The prospect of unpacking to you the history of that project and of that particular incident makes me feel indescribably tired and depressed. Now go ahead and have the last word, as is your habit.
I gave up trying to speak to the Devs who signed that garbage when one of them replied to me after I gave him my email silvertongued at etc, "How can I trust you with an email like that?" :roll:

As to explaining myself to the virtual lynch mobs that sprouted up here and elsewhere... Bah, I really have better things to do with my time and energy.

Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:34 am
by AndrewGrant
Albert Silver wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:29 am
dkappe wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:42 am
AndrewGrant wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:46 am
Could you please explain it to me then? If I'm missing crucial information, I'm perfectly happy to change my view when presented with additional information which brings my current view into question.
I’m happy to explain things to someone who listens and discusses in good faith. Your posts here and in other threads demonstrate amply that is not true in your case. The prospect of unpacking to you the history of that project and of that particular incident makes me feel indescribably tired and depressed. Now go ahead and have the last word, as is your habit.
I gave up trying to speak to the Devs who signed that garbage when one of them replied to me after I gave him my email silvertongued at etc, "How can I trust you with an email like that?" :roll:
Are you willing to share your side of the story?

Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:38 am
by Albert Silver
AndrewGrant wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:34 am
Albert Silver wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:29 am
dkappe wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:42 am
AndrewGrant wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:46 am
Could you please explain it to me then? If I'm missing crucial information, I'm perfectly happy to change my view when presented with additional information which brings my current view into question.
I’m happy to explain things to someone who listens and discusses in good faith. Your posts here and in other threads demonstrate amply that is not true in your case. The prospect of unpacking to you the history of that project and of that particular incident makes me feel indescribably tired and depressed. Now go ahead and have the last word, as is your habit.
I gave up trying to speak to the Devs who signed that garbage when one of them replied to me after I gave him my email silvertongued at etc, "How can I trust you with an email like that?" :roll:
Are you willing to share your side of the story?
I did, with those who were interested, and asked me. You are one who was at the forefront of the mob waving a pitchfork. I do not recall you ever asking my side while you did this. Ever. Seems a bit late now, no?

Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:42 am
by AndrewGrant
Albert Silver wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:38 am
AndrewGrant wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:34 am
Albert Silver wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:29 am
dkappe wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:42 am
AndrewGrant wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:46 am
Could you please explain it to me then? If I'm missing crucial information, I'm perfectly happy to change my view when presented with additional information which brings my current view into question.
I’m happy to explain things to someone who listens and discusses in good faith. Your posts here and in other threads demonstrate amply that is not true in your case. The prospect of unpacking to you the history of that project and of that particular incident makes me feel indescribably tired and depressed. Now go ahead and have the last word, as is your habit.
I gave up trying to speak to the Devs who signed that garbage when one of them replied to me after I gave him my email silvertongued at etc, "How can I trust you with an email like that?" :roll:
Are you willing to share your side of the story?
I did, with those who were interested, and asked me. You are one who was at the forefront of the mob waving a pitchfork. I do not recall you ever asking my side while you did this. Ever. Seems a bit late now, no?
Never to late to change someone's mind. Dkappe was uninterested. Are you?

Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:47 am
by Gary Internet
This is what Andrew is talking about. Nemorino 6, probably in the last couple of months has pretty much caught up to where Houdini 6.03 was.

Look at the head-to-head results from Stefan Pohl posted below.

It's also worth noting that Igel is probably around the same level of strength as Nemorino at the moment, or certainly catching up fast.

Code: Select all

14 Nemorino 6.00 avx2    : 3432 7000 (+1943,=3574,-1483), 53.3 %

Ethereal 12.62 avx2      : 1000 (+268,=589,-143), 56.3 %
Slow Chess 2.3 popc      : 1000 (+360,=512,-128), 61.6 %
Stockfish 12 200902      : 1000 (+  3,=412,-585), 20.9 %
Komodo 14 bmi2           : 1000 (+207,=569,-224), 49.1 %
Xiphos 0.6 bmi2          : 1000 (+432,=459,-109), 66.2 %
Fire 7.1 popc            : 1000 (+454,=470,- 76), 68.9 %
Houdini 6 pext           : 1000 (+219,=563,-218), 50.0 %

Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:15 am
by Tony P.
Generally, as a TCEC spectator, I'd like them to maintain a good gameplay quality-diversity compromise (which hasn't been reached in S19 because two nets mainly trained by Sergio Vieri were allowed to face each other, as well as the LS net inside Allie), which rather has to do with how much an invited engine's style has diverged from the rest (which is the organizers' judgment call assisted by quantifiers like SimEx, PV agreement, head-to-head draw rates) than with its origins, as long as the engine doesn't break the law (which neither DeusX nor Fat Fritz have done). The moral interpretation based on ICGA's rulings is out of date. Who cares about ICGA anymore?

Sorry for chiming into the DeusX dispute. Anyone who's interested in a lengthy discussion of it can start a thread in EO (I was reluctant to do that because I have little to add). Fwiw, I'd be interested in reading that. A priori, I consider Albert not guilty.