A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
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Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance
People like H shouldn't have done what they did, however, there is not so much for "good faith" in computer chess programming anyways, this forum is full of it and I'm gladly contributing my part.
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Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance
I'm a fan of Google, and they have released a huge amount of code in many areas into open source - and a lot of it is of very good quality. I don't know why they've done it (I suspect in some cases it stifles potential competitors), but I have personally benefited from using several of their open source libraries. A lot of the time, it just looks like generosity: they've made something good, and they're not going to sell it, so they give it away.
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It's not "how smart you are", it's "how are you smart".
Your brain doesn't work the way you want, so train it!
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Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance
Interesting, how some people immediately think about how they can make money with something. The phrasing “missing out” somehow implying that it is your duty as a proper homo economicus to extract all the money you can.Tony P. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:40 am Just by making Leela available to Caruana, Ding and the other super-GMs fully for free instead of ad-hominem freemium coaching services, the devs have missed out on a 5 (maybe 6) figure amount. (Well, that was a consequence of Glaurung's GPL, but they could still have done the Fat Fritz cloud trick, for example.)
One aspect which is overlooked here is that Leela Chess Zero and Stockfish are where they are because they are free and open. Leela would have never been a reality, if it wouldn’t have been supported by the large group of contributors.
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Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance
The solution is simple. Split the rating lists:Rebel wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:50 am His (rightly) concern is that engine authors download the latest SF NNUE net and gain a free xx elo. Example, suppose I add NNUE (I won't, but suppose) to ProDeo and get and 150 elo gain on the rating lists because of that. 6-7 months later -- having changed not one bit on my engine -- I download the latest SF net, it gives me a free 30-50 elo, I release it and rub my hands seeing ProDeo climb and climb in the rating lists. I would say that's a very unhealthy situation and surely this (kind of things) is what's going to happen in the near future.
So while NNUE is a fantastic new development regarding increasing strength it has an unwished negative side effect and I can understand that some engine authors already now consider to stop.
1. One for 'classic' engines without any neural networks.
2. One for 'hybrid' engines that use classic stuff but also some sort of neural network add-on.
3. One for 'full' neural network engines such as Leela.
Then everyone can compete in exactly the space they want; people who want to compete with classic engines with hand-crafted evaluation (with eval tuning as the only automated option) can do so without getting frustrated of seeing other engines pass their own just because they got a NNUE added; if they do, those engines go to the 2nd rating list. People who are into generating and researching different networks can compete with other networks on the third list.
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Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance
Where is the line? A PSQT is an in NNUE fashion incrementally updated Perceptron. Or do we only start calling it NN when it has multiple layers? Or perhaps when the inputs are more sparse, like a KingxPiece ([64][64]) table(which I've recently added to FabChess)?mvanthoor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:08 pm
The solution is simple. Split the rating lists:
1. One for 'classic' engines without any neural networks.
2. One for 'hybrid' engines that use classic stuff but also some sort of neural network add-on.
3. One for 'full' neural network engines such as Leela.
Then everyone can compete in exactly the space they want; people who want to compete with classic engines with hand-crafted evaluation (with eval tuning as the only automated option) can do so without getting frustrated of seeing other engines pass their own just because they got a NNUE added; if they do, those engines go to the 2nd rating list. People who are into generating and researching different networks can compete with other networks on the third list.
Author of FabChess: https://github.com/fabianvdW/FabChess
A UCI compliant chess engine written in Rust.
FabChessWiki: https://github.com/fabianvdW/FabChess/wiki
fabianvonderwarth@gmail.com
A UCI compliant chess engine written in Rust.
FabChessWiki: https://github.com/fabianvdW/FabChess/wiki
fabianvonderwarth@gmail.com
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Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance
It's rather about bridging the gap between the work we love to do and the work we have to do to maintain ourselves. It's rather about making our hobby profitable so that we can afford to reduce the hours of daytime slavery.
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Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance
I think trying to make money on computer chess is a mistake.
That is because people who are talented enough to write a winning chess engine can make far more money programming something else
Secondly, and more importantly, when you change chess programming from a hobby into a profession, it goes from fun to work
Now you must support it, now you must document it, now you must continue to make progress.
Sucks all the fun right out of it.
Now, there are a special few who can make money at chess programming. But I strongly suspect that they are driven by the intellectual challenge of chess programming and not the money in it, because there's not much money in it
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
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Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance
I understand that chess is rather a stepping stone to more relevant and challenging games (incl. 'serious games' and robotics), but I'd still appreciate a bit of positive reinforcement along the way if I went that way
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Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance
I don't begrudge people making money on it and even encourage it.
I have bought at least one copy of most professional chess programs and for some of them, I have bought a large number of vrsions.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
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Re: A Crossroad in Computer Chess; Or Desperate Flailing for Relevance
Thanks!
One of the enigmas of CC is why people were spending crazy amounts on GPUs to train Leela nets instead of figuring out an NN architecture that would play superstrong on CPUs and save the users so much hardware cost that they'd even be better off paying for the engine to get the anecdotal 'humanlike style' experience. SF NNUE has solved that problem to an extent, but stronger CPU NNs may be discovered that will rival the GPU Leela even if she improves a lot.
One of the enigmas of CC is why people were spending crazy amounts on GPUs to train Leela nets instead of figuring out an NN architecture that would play superstrong on CPUs and save the users so much hardware cost that they'd even be better off paying for the engine to get the anecdotal 'humanlike style' experience. SF NNUE has solved that problem to an extent, but stronger CPU NNs may be discovered that will rival the GPU Leela even if she improves a lot.