Koivisto

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Luecx
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:20 pm
Full name: Finn Eggers

Re: Koivisto

Post by Luecx » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:03 pm

Gerd Isenberg wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:06 pm
Luecx wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:49 pm
Gerd Isenberg wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:10 pm
I find it a bit strange that interesting new engines like Koivisto dissapear in these 2020 engine monster threads, while each tournament has its own entry in Tournaments and Matches. It should be the other way around - one thread for all private 2020 tournaments - and one thread per engine ;-)

Thank You,
Gerd Isenberg
We have never posted here so we were not sure where its best to post the release of the engine. We could also create a new thread if people wish so!

Greetings,
Finn
Yes, It was not meant as a critique to you, but the imbalance of addressing engines and tournaments here in general. I was probably a little bit harsh to the tournament freaks - sorry for that. New thread created.

What an interesting engine with an interesting logistic regression tuning approach. What about the nn folder, is that 3-layer net intendet to replace the evaluation or something else?

Thanks,
Gerd

The nn folder has been implemented by me a while ago but isn't part of the build yet. I used AVX/SSE instructions to implement a NNUE myself. I did not use the same mapping as SF does. We also tried creating our own weights by transferring the network to Python (Keras) to train on the GPU. There seem to be some issues with the NN architecture which we will resolve soon in the future. We are strictly against copying weights of SF so it takes some time. This is probably one of the first NN implementations from scratch without peaking at code of other engines in chess :). There is also a speed improvement which would probably double the speed of the network at this point but there are bigger problems which we are trying to resolve atm.

The logistic regression is taken from the basic texel tuning which has been extended with gradients to A) compute the change of all weights at the same time B) have a better estimate of how much the value needs to change.

Gabor Szots
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:43 am
Location: Szentendre, Hungary
Full name: Gabor Szots

Re: Koivisto

Post by Gabor Szots » Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:33 am

Luecx wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:49 pm
Gerd Isenberg wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:10 pm
I find it a bit strange that interesting new engines like Koivisto dissapear in these 2020 engine monster threads, while each tournament has its own entry in Tournaments and Matches. It should be the other way around - one thread for all private 2020 tournaments - and one thread per engine ;-)

Thank You,
Gerd Isenberg
We have never posted here so we were not sure where its best to post the release of the engine. We could also create a new thread if people wish so!

Greetings,
Finn
I have just started a Koivisto gauntlet for our blitz list, the result is going to appear at next week's update (Saturday or Sunday).
Gabor Szots
CCRL testing group

Gerd Isenberg
Posts: 2233
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:47 pm
Location: Hattingen, Germany

Re: Koivisto

Post by Gerd Isenberg » Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:29 am

Luecx wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:03 pm
The nn folder has been implemented by me a while ago but isn't part of the build yet. I used AVX/SSE instructions to implement a NNUE myself. I did not use the same mapping as SF does. We also tried creating our own weights by transferring the network to Python (Keras) to train on the GPU. There seem to be some issues with the NN architecture which we will resolve soon in the future. We are strictly against copying weights of SF so it takes some time. This is probably one of the first NN implementations from scratch without peaking at code of other engines in chess :). There is also a speed improvement which would probably double the speed of the network at this point but there are bigger problems which we are trying to resolve atm.

The logistic regression is taken from the basic texel tuning which has been extended with gradients to A) compute the change of all weights at the same time B) have a better estimate of how much the value needs to change.
Thanks, I see. Instructive code in optimiseGD.

Frank Quisinsky
Posts: 5494
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:16 pm
Location: Trier, Germany
Full name: Frank Quisinsky
Contact:

Re: Koivisto

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:42 am

Hi Gerd,

same opinion here!
We have programming freaks and tournament freaks and for each of the other topics the "Freaks".

We have a sub-forum for: Programming
We have a sub-forum for: Tournaments

In my humble opinion should messages about new versions of engines available in sub-forum: Programming.

An other good idea is to create a new sub-forum for the engines and messages about new versions.
So each of the programmer can open his own thread to his engine development.

What I dislike here:
To many messages about Stockfish, clones, derivate and the 1 Million different compiles.
Now NNUE is inside the release of Stockfish with the results: 1 Million different compiles more.

For the group of Stockfish freaks I think it would be better to create a sub-forum.
It's very boring to read again and again messages about Stockfish in the TalkChess "Main-Selection".
it's one of many available chess programs only.

I like Stockfish a lot but such things are with time very boring.

Best
Frank

And to Koivisto:
Yes, I started yesterday a small test.
Very interesting new engine, sure with time Koivisto (must thinking on Kallisto, program from Bart Weststrate, The Netherlands) will get many fans and interesting users.
I like computer chess!

Gabor Szots
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:43 am
Location: Szentendre, Hungary
Full name: Gabor Szots

Re: Koivisto

Post by Gabor Szots » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:07 am

Frank Quisinsky wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:42 am
In my humble opinion should messages about new versions of engines available in sub-forum: Programming.
Hi Frank,

I think that subforum is for programmers on technical details.

Gabor
Gabor Szots
CCRL testing group

Frank Quisinsky
Posts: 5494
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:16 pm
Location: Trier, Germany
Full name: Frank Quisinsky
Contact:

Re: Koivisto

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:16 am

Hi Gabor,

the final result, the new version of a program, with additional information about "what's new" is also a technical detail.
Means for complicated tournament configurations / Elo calculation / statistics / opening books (all what is important for tournaments) we have also not an own sub-fora.

So why for programming?
Logics here is often difficult to understand.
Maybe the admins are thinking "programming are more important and programmers are gods".

In times today, most part of sources are open and easy to understand.

But again:
A sub-forum for new versions of engines would be great.
Nobody have to search between all the Stockfish messages for additional information to engine x or y.

What I not understand is the sub-forum "Engine Origins".
Not enough message here and the clone topics are out!

Place can be better use for more interesting sub-fora ...

- about engine news ...
- about stockfish and co news ...

Best
Frank

The admins are intellegent people and with time ...
The problems will be solve!
I like computer chess!

Terje
Posts: 302
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:34 am
Location: https://github.com/TerjeKir/weiss
Full name: Terje Kirstihagen

Re: Koivisto

Post by Terje » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:49 am

A new subforum for engines, new releases and such is a good idea. Don't move it to technical discussions please :)

carldaman
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Koivisto

Post by carldaman » Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:51 pm

Gabor Szots wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:33 am
Luecx wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:49 pm
Gerd Isenberg wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:10 pm
I find it a bit strange that interesting new engines like Koivisto dissapear in these 2020 engine monster threads, while each tournament has its own entry in Tournaments and Matches. It should be the other way around - one thread for all private 2020 tournaments - and one thread per engine ;-)

Thank You,
Gerd Isenberg
We have never posted here so we were not sure where its best to post the release of the engine. We could also create a new thread if people wish so!

Greetings,
Finn
I have just started a Koivisto gauntlet for our blitz list, the result is going to appear at next week's update (Saturday or Sunday).
Hi Gabor,

Do you know where/if a download of a Koivisto executable is available? :)

Thanks!
8-)

Gabor Szots
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:43 am
Location: Szentendre, Hungary
Full name: Gabor Szots

Re: Koivisto

Post by Gabor Szots » Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:40 pm

carldaman wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:51 pm
Hi Gabor,

Do you know where/if a download of a Koivisto executable is available? :)

Thanks!
8-)
As far as I know there is no public download yet.
Gabor Szots
CCRL testing group

Luecx
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:20 pm
Full name: Finn Eggers

Re: Koivisto

Post by Luecx » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:18 pm

Gabor Szots wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:40 pm
carldaman wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:51 pm
Hi Gabor,

Do you know where/if a download of a Koivisto executable is available? :)

Thanks!
8-)
As far as I know there is no public download yet.
There is no static executable yet due to some compile issues. You can compile an executable yourself if you have make installed.

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