StockFiNN Release and Scaling

[Ovyron]

Why? If you're seriously interested, you wouldn't really mind 3$/month

Would you be okay if Stockfish also went 3$/month and the only thing that could be publicly downloaded was Stockfish 11's source?

This is clearly done to get monetary benefit from the work of others (Stockfish developers/StockfishNNUE's developers, which didn't add the paywall), which is fine, just don't pretend it's "to have it easy for users that don't have to deal with too many versions and networks."

The standard is "Beta versions", between releases beta versions advice users that want it easier to stick to just using releases, while the rest of users can download the beta versions between releases. That's basically Stockfish's model (many people ignored everything and just jumped from Stockfish 10 to 11), and that's the best for users.

Since this seems powered by greed I only hope that a different StockfishNNUE branch appears and it outpaces StockFiNN, because this can't be the future.

[peter]

Why? If you're seriously interested, you wouldn't really mind 3$/month

Would you be okay if Stockfish also went 3$/month and the only thing that could be publicly downloaded was Stockfish 11's source?

This is clearly done to get monetary benefit from the work of others (Stockfish developers/StockfishNNUE's developers, which didn't add the paywall), which is fine, just don't pretend it's "to have it easy for users that don't have to deal with too many versions and networks."

The standard is "Beta versions", between releases beta versions advice users that want it easier to stick to just using releases, while the rest of users can download the beta versions between releases. That's basically Stockfish's model (many people ignored everything and just jumped from Stockfish 10 to 11), and that's the best for users.

Since this seems powered by greed I only hope that a different StockfishNNUE branch appears and it outpaces StockFiNN, because this can't be the future.

It can be and if you ask me for my personal pov, it will be in some ways or some others.
Of course I wouldn't pay for SF- sources if they would be publicly available too as they are now. But it would be legal to go commercial even with those, wouldn't it?
Question would be, if same support from user's hardware and time for testing would be there for commercial SF- sources, I don't think so. So for the SF- project as it is now, free GPL would be best probably ongoingly. Framework on commercial basis could be considered too of course, that's not my decision neither. I like to have SF for free, but if it wouldn't be free anymore, I'd for sure buy it to get it (if the price was reasonable). Of course only, if there's still progress (for my own use) to be seen.

If you have any work of your own added to the GPL- project of it's own. like SF and e.g. NN- nets for it, why not try sell those (works, nets) as well as chessbase does with Fat Fritz- nets?

I bought Fat Fritz and I would buy SF NN- nets, if they wouldn't be better (for my personal use) then publicly available GPL- engines without charge to be downloaded, of course I would stop buying them again.

What's the problem of having commercial projects besides free GPL- projects? If you're a fan of user's choice, leave this choice to buy or not to buy to the users too.
BTW., there will come and there are already other commercial NN- nets for LC0 besides Fat Fritz too, still I'm not sure, if the 3§/month- abo offered at the site of the link given (don't want to give it again just not to get guilty of commercial advertising) isn't meant for Leelenstein- nets only. Have a closer look, if you didn't do so already.

[Rebel]

I don't trust companies that are asking to log in with your Google or Facebook account.

[peter]

I don't trust companies that are asking to log in with your Google or Facebook account.

Neither do I
BTW,I hadn't got so far till now to find out about that, still pondering about becoming a patron, Stefan Pohl's tests aren't bad but not quite convincing so far, are they?
Yet I don't think you have to log in by Google or Facebook, seems to be possible without that too.
Let's wait and see as for further developments.

[Rebel]

I don't trust companies that are asking to log in with your Google or Facebook account.

Neither do I
BTW, which company are you talking about in this context?

https://www.patreon.com/signup?ru=%2Fcreate

[peter]

I don't trust companies that are asking to log in with your Google or Facebook account.

Neither do I
BTW, which company are you talking about in this context?

https://www.patreon.com/signup?ru=%2Fcreate

Thanks, edited my posting you quoted, while you were answering.

[Ovyron]

What's the problem of having commercial projects besides free GPL- projects?

I'm not questioning that, I'm questioning the motives. It was said this was for the benefit of the users, which is clearly false.

Do whatever you want, just don't pretend it's done for different reasons.

If Stockfish closed its sources, asked $3/month to get them, and said it was so that users didn't need to deal with so many patches, it wouldn't fly.

[peter]

Do whatever you want, just don't pretend it's done for different reasons.

If Stockfish closed its sources, asked $3/month to get them, and said it was so that users didn't need to deal with so many patches, it wouldn't fly.

Thanks for allowing me to do whatever I want but don't tell me I'm pretending anything.

That SF wouldn't fly going commercial what was I supposed too, read my posting again.

But what's your problem with commercial projects besides free GPL- projects and what's your problem with me and my reasons, even if you think, I'm just "pretending" them?
What reasons do you think I have, to pretend other reasons than those I wrote about (btw being asked by you to give them) which you obviously don't even have read or understood, otherwise you wouldn't have any problems with them or me neither.

If it's your problem, that you don't want to see commercial GPL- projects, I can understand your problem, but it's not mine, sorry for not having your problems, I'm quite confident with having those of my own only.

BTW nobody said, SF NNUE should better not be developed any further for free too, as well as with SF itself I'm as confindent as you are, it won't fly without support by users as SF itself probably wouldn't.

If anybody tries to go commercial with SF NNUE nets accordingly, you shouldn't have so much problem with that, selling your own program (Fritz 17) by yourself together with the company that sells Fat Fritz too (NN- nets only with sources of LC0, which are granted and given to the user as well).

A good example of coexistence of free and commercial GPL- projects, isn't it? As I already said, I bought Fat Fritz too and I bought Gingko- Fritz. Both are worth their price to me.

[Gejsi Marku]

People wouldn't think twice of buying a coffee a day (which in US may cost more than 3$) yet will find hundred different reasons to not pay for the cost of a service someone is willing to provide at less than a coffee price. (Per month!)

Whatever fits your boat. Personally I wouldn't mind if SF went subscription mode. Developers deserve it. But it is also at their own volition to keep it open source. They do it out of their own passion.
But can't judge everyone the same. Some people need incentive for their work. They are not stealing. They are developing different ways to make SF stronger.

[jjoshua2]

I was originally posting these on mega upload and not too many people were downloading and I ran out of space on my free account there (after running out of space on my google drive). Patreon is very easy to blog and host files without too much costs. (That old adage, easy, fast, cheap pick two ) It is possible to sign up without a facebook or google account as well, those just prevent you from needing a separate patreon account. And it actually is still just the Leelenstein patreon. All those existing users are just getting something else for free and easy email updates etc. But maybe someday they will get the world's strongest GPU and CPU engine at same time, you never know... At least according to some tests and rating lists that has already happened for some people's PCs. But everyone will continue to have their own opinions and favorites, just the way it should be.