TCEC confusion

[Milos]

Isn't the very different method of NN training also interesting?
A NN chess program without the net is a blithering idiot.
But it is their contest, and they can do as they like.

Not it's not. It's equally interesting as having 10 Stockfish clones with minor search/eval changes competing together with SF. For obvious reasons that is not allowed. For example there is no Crystal competing even though I'm sure quite a lot of ppl would like to see it there.

[Dann Corbit]

Crystal is kibitzing, which is something of an honor, I should think.

[Stephen Ham]

OK gents, so what's happening in TCEC now? TCEC's communication is historically largely non-existent. And when they do communicate, it's unclear. TCEC, in small print in the upper right corner now tells us it's Super-Final 18. Great! That's some help, relative to prior non-communication.

Thanks Michael for the two links offered. That helps, but only just a bit. For example, they had some apparent non-cycle event playing before the present one, Leela vs. some, but not all, Premier Div. engines. But again...what the heck was that structure, and what was the point? Why just some engines? I understand it's generally just a time-filler before the Su-Fi, but why not clearly communicate that, and explain what the point is? As of late last night, Leela had a negative score while Komodo had the best score. There's a story there, but what was it? What's the explanation for Leela's poor result and the positive scores of Komodo and Stockfish against it?

Jeroen Noomen's openings seem controversial, especially for a Su-Fi. The game I'm watching now was a 1-move opening book: 1 e4 c5. But that seems unfair to Stockfish, since Leela virtually has a built-in book. From prior experience, it generally knows what it wants to play. Instead, Stockfish needs to "keep reinventing the wheel" in each game.

Sincerely,
-Steve-

[Alayan]

What do you expect, a TV announcement ?

Just go on the TCEC website and everything is spelled out. And there is a chat to ask questions if needed.

[zenpawn]

Thanks Michael for the two links offered. That helps, but only just a bit. For example, they had some apparent non-cycle event playing before the present one, Leela vs. some, but not all, Premier Div. engines. But again...what the heck was that structure, and what was the point? Why just some engines? I understand it's generally just a time-filler before the Su-Fi, but why not clearly communicate that, and explain what the point is? As of late last night, Leela had a negative score while Komodo had the best score. There's a story there, but what was it? What's the explanation for Leela's poor result and the positive scores of Komodo and Stockfish against it?

That was Lc0 on a CPU rather than GPU.

[Stephen Ham]

Thanks Erin!

However, was that explanation clearly presented at TCEC? I didn't see it. Perhaps that explanation was buried somewhere on the site, but it was not visible to this observer. In chatting with several others, the situation was equally unclear to them too.

All the best,
-Steve-

[zenpawn]

However, was that explanation clearly presented at TCEC? I didn't see it. Perhaps that explanation was buried somewhere on the site, but it was not visible to this observer. In chatting with several others, the situation was equally unclear to them too.

The difference was in the engine name, i.e., LCZeroCPU rather than LCZero, without any qualifiers, as in the superfinal.

Note: There might have been other clues too, but that was the one I noticed.

[Terje]

OK gents, so what's happening in TCEC now? TCEC's communication is historically largely non-existent. And when they do communicate, it's unclear. TCEC, in small print in the upper right corner now tells us it's Super-Final 18. Great! That's some help, relative to prior non-communication.

Thanks Michael for the two links offered. That helps, but only just a bit. For example, they had some apparent non-cycle event playing before the present one, Leela vs. some, but not all, Premier Div. engines. But again...what the heck was that structure, and what was the point? Why just some engines? I understand it's generally just a time-filler before the Su-Fi, but why not clearly communicate that, and explain what the point is? As of late last night, Leela had a negative score while Komodo had the best score. There's a story there, but what was it? What's the explanation for Leela's poor result and the positive scores of Komodo and Stockfish against it?

Jeroen Noomen's openings seem controversial, especially for a Su-Fi. The game I'm watching now was a 1-move opening book: 1 e4 c5. But that seems unfair to Stockfish, since Leela virtually has a built-in book. From prior experience, it generally knows what it wants to play. Instead, Stockfish needs to "keep reinventing the wheel" in each game.

Sincerely,
-Steve-

The event name in the top right corner has been there for a long time. During the event that confused you, the top right said "S18 - LCZeroCPU vs DivP CPU". Why did Leela do poorly? It was using CPU instead of GPU. Why only some divp engines? Because only the divp CPU engines were used. There are also a ton of commands in chat that will get you links to information, like !s18 for season 18 information and !next for information about what's happening currently and in the foreseeable future. And if at any point you are unable to find what you're looking for, the chat, as well as the discord, is full of people who will answer any questions you have.

The people who make the books for TCEC are doing a great job keeping the games varied and interesting, and the draw rates reasonable, but if you think you have valuable input you can even discuss it with them directly in the chat. Be wary, however, that you're not the first to think Leela is an opening book (whether it's correct or not), and that this will not be news to them.

[Stephen Ham]

Thanks, Terje and Erin!

Great points that you've explained very clearly. Somehow I just didn't connect the dots well. Still, I think TCEC could be clearer in what they're doing, and why.

All the very best,
-Steve-

[Dann Corbit]

Intelligent people find the site confusing. That is because it is confusing.
This is meant to be constructive criticism.
I think that the TCEC competition is the most important chess engine contest on the planet.
But it is never clear what is going on.
One should not have to join some forum in order to understand the site.

Specify what the current contest games are (are we just calibrating? Is it a contest that means something? What is this contest? What do the divisions mean? etc.)

Your grandmother should be able to go the the site and understand it. That should be the goal.
Now, you can ignore the input of interested fans, but you ignore it at your peril.