Giving up the center

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Henk
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Re: Giving up the center

Post by Henk » Sat May 02, 2020 12:35 pm

MonteCarlo wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:28 pm
A few points on the original post:

1) Even if we were blindly trusting that SF's first choice at some arbitrary depth was "the truth", the evals for exd4 and Nbd7 are very close at most depths, certainly not different enough to think SF clearly prefers one over the other. Which it prefers could easily change at a future iteration.

2) Unassisted engine analysis from a position so early in the game is unlikely to distinguish all that well between similar options, i.e., we shouldn't blindly trust them.

3) exd4 Nxd4 transposes to the old main line of the Philidor, played thousands of times over the last ~180 years by humans. It's not some crazy engine line no human could manage to play.

4) Some rule of thumb articulated by a master of yore shouldn't be blindly trusted either.

Especially for human play, you're better off choosing between those moves based on which one leads to positions you enjoy playing the most, as you'll be more likely to put time into understanding the position.

For human play, you're much better off playing something you enjoy and will stick with long enough to understand well, even if all engines think it's 15 cp worse than some alternative, and even if it violates a rule of thumb articulated by some strong human player.

Cheers!
I know from experience that 4 ed: is difficult to play. If you make one more bad move in that position it is certainly lost.

BrendanJNorman
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Re: Giving up the center

Post by BrendanJNorman » Sat May 02, 2020 1:03 pm

Henk wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:26 pm
It is different when pawn on c4 because you can't play Bc4. Stockfish suggests you have to play Be6 after Bc4 instead of Bg5.


Why do you play 5...dxe5?! in your analysis? Play 5....Nxe5 first.

There is no danger for black at all in this line. and no reason to double/isolate your pawns either.



That being said, the doubled/isolated structure isn't as bad as club players tend to think.

You said:
Henk wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:26 pm
But I don't like Be6 fe6. And you are stuck with an isolated double pawn.
But remember, a weakness is only a weakness if it can be attacked.

Even Smyslov allowed such a concession once in the exact same structure.



Here Smyslov played 11...Be6 which Fischer gave an ! in his famous memorable games book.

Image



In the position after Rad8 white is only slightly better, and Fischer won mostly because he was simply the stronger player.

I'd suggest anybody to study the classic games of World Champions before analyzing move 5 of an opening with an elite engine, because, without such foundational knowledge, you'll have no idea what you're looking at.

BrendanJNorman
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Re: Giving up the center

Post by BrendanJNorman » Sat May 02, 2020 1:14 pm

MonteCarlo wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:28 pm

For human play, you're much better off playing something you enjoy and will stick with long enough to understand well, even if all engines think it's 15 cp worse than some alternative, and even if it violates a rule of thumb articulated by some strong human player.
All of your points are very good, but I like this one the most.

I have always pushed my students to play positions where they feel strongest and most comfortable and actually ban them from using an engine until they cross at least an 1800 rating (and thus, know *why* they like certain positions, their strengths and weaknesses and so on).

Ivanchuk made an excellent point on this topic a long time ago already:

Image

zullil
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Re: Giving up the center

Post by zullil » Sat May 02, 2020 1:28 pm

Karol Majewski wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:14 pm
I have a question to a similar position:



This can happen out of Philidor or Scotch, so that's very common position on an amateur level. So what's White's best way to continue? I guess many good moves here. Leela favours Bb5, while Stockfish switches between Bf4, Be2, Nxc6. Can someone with a strong CPU run Stockfish for a long time in this position?
As you say, Stockfish's choices vary considerably from iteration to iteration. Here's what Stockfish-dev offers at depth 50:

info depth 50 seldepth 83 multipv 1 score cp 84 nodes 95191474646 nps 29182257 hashfull 1000 tbhits 0 time 3261964 pv d4c6 b7c6 f1d3 f8e7 e1g1 e8g8 f2f4 a7a5 h2h3 c8b7 c1d2 f6d7 d1f3 e7f6 a1d1 f6d4 d2e3 d4e3 f3e3 d7c5 d3c4 a5a4 f1e1 d8b8 e4e5 b7c8 e3d4 c8e6 b2b3 a4b3 a2b3 e6c4 d4c4 b8b6 g1h1 d6d5 c4d4 c5d7 d4d2 f8e8 h1h2 d7c5 f4f5 b6b4 d2e3 c5d7 e3g3 b4e7 f5f6 e7f8 d1d4 g7g6 d4a4 a8a4 c3a4 d5d4 c2c3

I'll let the search continue, and report again later.

Henk
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Re: Giving up the center

Post by Henk » Sat May 02, 2020 2:09 pm

BrendanJNorman wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 1:03 pm
Henk wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:26 pm
It is different when pawn on c4 because you can't play Bc4. Stockfish suggests you have to play Be6 after Bc4 instead of Bg5.


Why do you play 5...dxe5?! in your analysis? Play 5....Nxe5 first.

There is no danger for black at all in this line. and no reason to double/isolate your pawns either.



That being said, the doubled/isolated structure isn't as bad as club players tend to think.

You said:
Henk wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:26 pm
But I don't like Be6 fe6. And you are stuck with an isolated double pawn.
But remember, a weakness is only a weakness if it can be attacked.

Even Smyslov allowed such a concession once in the exact same structure.



Here Smyslov played 11...Be6 which Fischer gave an ! in his famous memorable games book.

Image



In the position after Rad8 white is only slightly better, and Fischer won mostly because he was simply the stronger player.

I'd suggest anybody to study the classic games of World Champions before analyzing move 5 of an opening with an elite engine, because, without such foundational knowledge, you'll have no idea what you're looking at.
I would play Nd4 instead of Ne5:. I still think whité is better here. So 4. Nc6 not that good. Pawns on e4, f4 annoying maybe white could even play g4 later in the game. Black can only defend. Or maybe attack square e4 but after Rae1 square e4 good defended.

MonteCarlo
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Re: Giving up the center

Post by MonteCarlo » Sat May 02, 2020 2:37 pm

Henk wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:35 pm
I know from experience that 4 ed: is difficult to play. If you make one more bad move in that position it is certainly lost.
Sure, if you have difficulty playing the resulting positions and aren't really interested in spending the time and effort getting more comfortable with them, Nbd7 is a fine alternative.

I've played both the exd4 Philidor and the improved Hanham a lot, and don't really have a strong preference between them.

To each his own :)

Henk
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Re: Giving up the center

Post by Henk » Sat May 02, 2020 2:41 pm

Problem with Nd7 is the gambit g4. I already forgot how to play that with black. There are some tricks with sacrifices on f7 I remember. I don't like playing against agressive opponents. They scare me to death with their dubious sacrifices. Usually only bluffing and intimidating.

Henk
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Re: Giving up the center

Post by Henk » Sat May 02, 2020 4:50 pm

a6 what strange move is that. Waste of time or not. Be7 looks better.

I think ed: only good move if you can exchange pawn e4 with d5 shortly after.
After 6. Nd4 one can not play d5 because of f4.


zullil
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Re: Giving up the center

Post by zullil » Sat May 02, 2020 5:45 pm

zullil wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 1:28 pm
Karol Majewski wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:14 pm
I have a question to a similar position:



This can happen out of Philidor or Scotch, so that's very common position on an amateur level. So what's White's best way to continue? I guess many good moves here. Leela favours Bb5, while Stockfish switches between Bf4, Be2, Nxc6. Can someone with a strong CPU run Stockfish for a long time in this position?
As you say, Stockfish's choices vary considerably from iteration to iteration. Here's what Stockfish-dev offers at depth 50:

info depth 50 seldepth 83 multipv 1 score cp 84 nodes 95191474646 nps 29182257 hashfull 1000 tbhits 0 time 3261964 pv d4c6 b7c6 f1d3 f8e7 e1g1 e8g8 f2f4 a7a5 h2h3 c8b7 c1d2 f6d7 d1f3 e7f6 a1d1 f6d4 d2e3 d4e3 f3e3 d7c5 d3c4 a5a4 f1e1 d8b8 e4e5 b7c8 e3d4 c8e6 b2b3 a4b3 a2b3 e6c4 d4c4 b8b6 g1h1 d6d5 c4d4 c5d7 d4d2 f8e8 h1h2 d7c5 f4f5 b6b4 d2e3 c5d7 e3g3 b4e7 f5f6 e7f8 d1d4 g7g6 d4a4 a8a4 c3a4 d5d4 c2c3

I'll let the search continue, and report again later.
info depth 60 seldepth 89 multipv 1 score cp 68 nodes 576843828167 nps 30663264 hashfull 1000 tbhits 0 time 18812212 pv c1f4 f8e7 d1d2 e8g8 e1c1 c6d4 d2d4 a7a6 e4e5 d6e5 d4e5 e7d6 e5d4 d6f4 d4f4 d8e7 f1c4 c8e6 h1e1 a8d8 c4e6 f7e6 f4e3 d8d1 c3d1 f8e8 d1c3 e7d6 g2g3 d6c6 f2f3 g8f7 h2h4 f6d5 c3d5 e6d5 e3f4 f7g8 e1e8 c6e8 b2b3 e8d7 a2a4 a6a5 g3g4 h7h6 c1b1 c7c6 f4e5 g8h7 b1c1 d7f7 f3f4 f7f6 e5f6 g7f6 h4h5 h7g8 c1d2 g8g7 d2d3 c6c5 d3e3 g7g8 e3e2 g8f7 e2f3 b7b6 f3g3 f7g8

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Rebel
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Re: Giving up the center

Post by Rebel » Sat May 02, 2020 6:02 pm

Remember OKE (Opening Knowledge Engines)

http://rebel13.nl/rebel13/oke.html
90% of coding is debugging, the other 10% is writing bugs.

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