Yes I think the same.
We need even more different -contempt tests.
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
Why? Because I can .yanquis1972 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:18 pm Why on earth did you limit SF to 3 cores?? As pointed out by everyone, it can only be surmised that negative contempt is implemented very well. The strength difference is massive. As for SF winning TCEC with such settings...you can’t win if you don’t...win.
Maybe that's it.Raphexon wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:13 amI think SF benefits from low contempt against Leela even if hardware differences cause SF to be stronger.Branko Radovanovic wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:24 am Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but what you're saying is:But this is precisely what lowering contempt is supposed to do in this situation. On the other hand, if you added enough cores to make SF stronger than LC0, then the setting of -75 would actually become detrimental: what helps you when you are weaker, hurts you when you are stronger.
- You have a setup in which SF is clearly weaker than its opponent
- In this setup, negative contempt yields better match results than positive contempt
Low contempt "forces" SF to trade much sooner which in turn will cause the game to be tactical at a much earlier state too.
I have a 6 core, you should already know it;)Leo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:09 amHe might only have a quad core or he was proving a point on how decent a weak hardware setup can play against a powerful LCO.yanquis1972 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:18 pm Why on earth did you limit SF to 3 cores?? As pointed out by everyone, it can only be surmised that negative contempt is implemented very well. The strength difference is massive. As for SF winning TCEC with such settings...you can’t win if you don’t...win.
1. All games together were much more than 40 games. But feel free to run your 30000 games to be happy.corres wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:35 am Some notes:
1,40 games are too few to measure Elo.
2,Basically the contempt has effect on the style of an engine and it has smaller effect on Elo.
3,The chess power of Leela strongly depends on the used net and the parameters of Leela together with move time.
4,In general against a dual RTX 2080 Ti even 16 cores is few for Stockfish to get equal challenge.
Code: Select all
HAKIN94LIFE, Blitz 4.0min+2.0sec 0
1 Stockfish 11 64 BMI2 +1/=38/-1 50.00% 20.0/40 400.00
2 Lc0 v0.25.1+git.69105b4-Net60 +1/=38/-1 50.00% 20.0/40 400.00
If you really want to prove your statement you would make a competition among the next participant:Hai wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 9:44 pm1. All games together were much more than 40 games. But feel free to run your 30000 games to be happy.corres wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:35 am Some notes:
1,40 games are too few to measure Elo.
2,Basically the contempt has effect on the style of an engine and it has smaller effect on Elo.
3,The chess power of Leela strongly depends on the used net and the parameters of Leela together with move time.
4,In general against a dual RTX 2080 Ti even 16 cores is few for Stockfish to get equal challenge.
2. Yes I also see +75 elo as a small improvement against LC0. I think that negative contempt shows exactly what needs to be improved in Stockfish Dev default. I would be much more happy, if I would be 53 elo behind Magnus Carlsen instead of 127 elo, even if other people would say my playing style is bad, because they think I'm playing passive and they still don't understand what's going on.
3. Yes I also think LC0 had the clear disadvantage in my test with the 30x384 (3350) net on 2x RTX 2080 Ti with default parameters against 3 core Stockfish with contempt -75.
4. In general this sentence is general but has nothing to do with my test.
Code: Select all
[Event "Computer Chess Game"]
[Site "Olivers-MacBook-2.local"]
[Date "2020.05.08"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Lc0 v0.24.1+git.dirty"]
[Black "Stockfish 11 64"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "40/180"]
[Annotator "2. +0.29 1... -0.20"]
1. d4 d5 {-0.20/23 4} 2. c4 {+0.29/9 2.6} e6 {-0.06/24 5} 3. Nf3
{+0.28/11 6} Nf6 {-0.07/22 2.0} 4. g3 {+0.29/10 2.9} Be7 {+0.29/23 5} 5.
Bg2 {+0.29/10 2.5} O-O {+0.34/21 1.7} 6. O-O {+0.30/12 3} dxc4
{+0.42/24 0.3} 7. Qc2 {+0.32/12 3} b5 {+0.29/25 4} 8. a4 {+0.45/14 5} b4
{+0.22/26 0.1} 9. Nfd2 {+0.49/18 7} c6 {+0.00/30 0.1} 10. Nxc4
{+0.48/18 1.0} Qxd4 {+0.28/29 1.6} 11. Rd1 {+0.53/18 2.1} Qc5 {+0.00/30 4}
12. Be3 {+0.55/18 0.2} Qh5 {+0.15/23 2.5} 13. Nbd2 {+0.55/16 3} Ng4
{+0.16/24 2.0} 14. Nf3 {+0.43/15 14} Nxe3 {+0.00/31 0.2} 15. Nxe3
{+0.41/13 0.2} a6 {+0.00/28 1.4} 16. Nc4 {+0.75/12 11} Ra7 {+0.31/26 8} 17.
Rac1 {+0.81/14 4} c5 {+0.12/22 2.0} 18. Nfe5 {+0.82/12 1.9} g6
{+0.00/29 17} 19. h4 {+1.03/10 8} Bb7 {+0.00/28 15} 20. Qd3 {+1.08/14 5}
Bxg2 {+0.00/23 2.8} 21. Kxg2 {+1.05/17 0.4} Rc7 {-0.54/33 18} 22. b3
{+1.29/14 6} Qf5 {-0.59/25 2.0} 23. Qe3 {+1.56/13 5} Nc6 {-0.97/27 0.7} 24.
Nxc6 {+1.60/15 4} Rxc6 {-0.97/30 0.1} 25. Rd7 {+1.63/14 2.3} Bf6
{-1.22/32 17} 26. Rcd1 {+1.74/17 1.2} Bc3 {-1.16/25 1.7} 27. Qf3
{+1.77/12 8} Rfc8 {-1.18/31 0.1} 28. Nd6 {+1.75/13 7} Qxf3+ {-1.40/24 4}
29. Kxf3 {+1.76/14 0.2} Ra8 {-1.34/26 2.6} 30. e3 {+1.88/11 8} Rf8
{-1.47/29 7} 31. Nc4 {+1.94/11 6} Rfc8 {-1.49/31 0.2} 32. g4 {+2.00/11 9}
f5 {-1.57/27 12} 33. g5 {+1.98/13 0.9} e5 {-1.54/24 1.4} 34. Nd6
{+1.99/12 2.8} Rf8 {-1.77/26 5} 35. a5 {+2.08/13 4} e4+ {-2.84/27 12} 36.
Kf4 {+2.16/12 0.6} c4 {-3.06/28 6} 37. Nxc4 {+2.28/13 5} Rf7 {-3.30/26 0.2}
38. h5 {+2.44/15 6} gxh5 {-2.92/26 2.8} 39. Rxf7 {+2.52/15 4} Kxf7
{-2.98/24 2.1} 40. Nd6+ {+2.61/15 2.1} Kg6 {-2.95/26 0.3} 41. Nxf5
{+2.73/15 8} Re6 {-3.47/32 9} 42. Nh4+ {+2.84/15 4} Kf7 {-4.22/35 29} 43.
Rd7+ {+3.02/14 0.2} Re7 {-4.33/36 25} 44. Rxe7+ {+3.12/14 0.2} Kxe7
{-4.35/31 2.4} 45. Kxe4 {+3.20/13 10} Be1 {-4.75/35 5} 46. Kf3 {+3.30/13 8}
Bc3 {-5.37/37 23} 47. Ng2 {+3.60/11 46} Be5 {-5.91/37 0.2} 48. Nf4
{+4.27/9 12} Kf8 {-6.16/30 0.2} 49. Nxh5 {+4.94/8 21} Bc7 {-5.71/28 2.8}
50. Nf6 {+4.79/8 11} Bxa5 {-7.03/29 0.2} 51. Nxh7+ {+5.27/9 5} Kf7
{-7.54/29 1.9} 52. Nf6 {+5.76/8 7} Bb6 {-8.66/30 17} 53. Nd5 {+7.21/7 10}
Bd8 {-7.36/26 5} 54. Nxb4 {+11.54/7 4} Bxg5 {-8.81/30 18} 55. Nxa6
{+15.67/6 7} Bd8 {-9.86/28 1.2} 56. Nb4 {+22.78/6 6} Ke6 {-12.11/26 2.6}
57. Na2 {+21.51/6 4} Ke5 {-6.13/25 1.2} 58. Nc3 {+17.64/6 4} Ba5
{-8.58/27 7} 59. Na4 {+15.10/7 3} Kd5 {-9.92/29 4} 60. Nb2 {+16.73/6 2.7}
Bc7 {-10.91/28 4} 61. Nd3 {+19.40/6 2.6} Bd8 {-9.98/27 0.3} 62. Ne1
{+20.52/6 2.2} Bc7 {-11.79/29 3} 63. Nc2 {+20.61/6 1.9} Bd6 {-9.92/25 2.8}
64. Ne1 {+20.68/6 1.7} Bb8 {-11.85/29 0.2} 65. Ng2 {+21.74/6 1.5} Kc5
{-8.89/25 1.0} 66. Nf4 {+22.17/6 1.3} Kb4 {-5.73/21 0.5} 67. Ke4
{+24.19/5 1.1} Kc5 {-13.67/26 6} 68. Nd3+ {+23.80/6 1.0} Kd6
{-13.68/23 0.2} 69. Nc1 {+29.08/5 0.8} Ke6 {-11.70/25 0.9} 70. Ne2
{+30.67/5 0.7} Kd7 {-12.18/26 2.0} 71. Kd3 {+27.15/5 0.6} Bc7
{-11.18/27 2.5} 72. Ke4 {+27.36/5 0.5} Ba5 {-12.66/24 0.1} 73. f4
{+30.48/5 0.5} Ke7 {-12.75/27 1.1} 74. Ng3 {+26.94/5 0.5} Kd6
{-12.58/26 1.1} 75. Nf1 {+23.33/5 0.5} Kc5 {-5.76/17 0.2} 76. Kd3
{+29.02/5 0.5} Bc7 {-6.69/18 0.2} 77. Ke4 {+22.13/5 0.5} Bd8 {-8.06/22 0.5}
78. Nd2 {+33.62/5 0.5} Bf6 {-8.21/19 0.3} 79. Nf3 {+34.00/5 0.5} Bc3
{-9.82/18 0.2} 80. Kd3 {+25.30/5 0.5} Bg7 {-9.43/16 0.1} 81. Ng5
{+26.01/6 21} Kd6 {-12.85/30 10} 82. Nf3 {+23.32/6 18} Bf8 {-25.76/31 30}
83. Ke4 {+27.18/6 16} Ke6 {-47.72/32 17} 84. Nd4+ {+22.65/7 14} Kf7
{-63.75/37 29} 85. Ne2 {+26.77/7 12} Bc5 {-15.39/26 4} 86. Kd3
{+22.35/6 11} Kg6 {-47.97/38 2.2} 87. e4 {+26.45/6 9} Bf2 {-36.48/27 7} 88.
Nc3 {+27.59/6 8} Bc5 {-64.76/37 10} 89. Kc4 {+33.31/6 7} Be3 {-66.94/36 7}
90. Ne2 {+25.68/6 6} Kh5 {-69.76/33 1.7} 91. Kd5 {+28.08/6 6} Kg6
{-71.24/35 2.1} 92. b4 {+31.99/6 5} Kf7 {-64.23/29 5} 93. b5 {+32.91/6 5}
Ke8 {-1000.26/30 7} 94. f5 {+37.74/6 4} Bb6 {-1000.16/35 0.1} 95. e5
{+42.49/6 4} Bd8 {-1000.14/49 1.3} 96. Nf4 {+45.55/6 3} Kf7
{-1000.15/42 1.3} 97. Nh5 {+44.62/6 2.9} Kf8 {-1000.13/34 2.4} 98. Ng3
{+44.37/6 2.6} Kg7 {-1000.15/30 1.3} 99. Nf1 {+48.66/6 2.3} Kh6
{-58.87/23 1.4} 100. Kd6 {+52.05/6 2.0} Kg5 {-147.92/28 6} 101. f6
{+44.77/6 1.8} Ba5 {-1000.14/30 1.4} 102. Ne3 {+55.69/6 1.7} Bb4+
{-1000.14/28 4} 103. Ke6 {+57.44/6 1.5} Bc5 {-1000.14/29 1.4} 104. Nc4
{+61.88/5 1.3} Kf4 {-1000.12/29 1.5} 105. Nd6 {+58.77/5 1.2} Kg4
{-1000.13/34 1.4} 106. Nb7 {+60.70/5 1.1} Ba7 {-1000.13/36 2.2} 107. b6
{+50.44/5 1.0} Bxb6 {-1000.12/28 0.8} 108. Nd6 {+44.83/6 0.8} Be3
{-1000.13/26 1.3} 109. Nc4 {+27.70/5 0.9} Bh6 {-1000.14/28 2.2} 110. Nd6
{+41.89/5 0.7} Kf4 {-1000.16/35 2.0} 111. Nf5 {+16.03/6 0.7} Bf8
{-1000.17/42 0.7} 112. Ne7 {+22.93/6 0.6} Bh6 {-1000.18/40 1.5} 113. Nc6
{+31.52/6 0.8} Kg5 {-1000.19/34 1.2} 114. Nd4 {+20.10/6 0.8} Kg6
{-1000.17/36 0.6} 115. Nc6 {+13.70/6 0.7} Kg5 {-1000.16/35 0.9} 116. f7
{+17.32/6 0.7} Kg6 {-1000.14/42 1.3} 117. Ke7 {+16.08/6 0.6} Be3
{-1000.13/32 1.0} 118. e6 {+39.78/5 0.9} Bc5+ {-1000.12/38 0.7} 119. Kd7
{+15.81/6 0.8} Kf6 {-1000.14/49 1.5} 120. Nd4 {+7.38/7 0.7} Ba3
{-1000.13/50 2.4} 121. Ke8 {+9.20/8 11} Bd6 {-1000.14/44 4} 122. f8=Q+
{+20.35/8 12} Bxf8 {-1000.13/49 4} 123. Kxf8 {+18.03/9 6} Ke5
{-1000.11/59 0.1} 124. Ke7 {+34.22/8 22} Kd5 {-1000.10/53 4} 125. Kf6
{+47.60/7 10} Kd6 {-1000.10/47 4} 126. Nf5+ {+46.88/7 9} Kc6
{-1000.09/50 4} 127. Kf7 {+55.76/7 8} Kc5 {-1000.09/49 4} 128. e7
{+66.30/7 8} Kb4 {-1000.07/58 0.1} 129. Kg8 {+78.42/6 7} Kc3
{-1000.08/48 4} 130. Nh4 {+73.12/6 6} Kd4 {-1000.09/44 4} 131. Kf7
{+70.39/6 6} Kc3 {-1000.08/52 0.1} 132. Nf3 {+77.00/6 5} Kc4
{-1000.08/49 4} 133. Kg6 {+75.95/6 5} Kc5 {-1000.08/47 5} 134. Kf7
{+56.30/6 5} Kd5 {-1000.08/51 4} 135. e8=R {+91.83/6 4} Kc5 {-1000.11/45 4}
136. Rg8 {+83.00/6 4} Kc4 {-1000.12/46 4} 137. Kg7 {+73.16/6 4} Kb4
{-1000.12/48 4} 138. Re8 {+62.09/6 3} Kb3 {-1000.11/49 0.8} 139. Kh8
{+55.16/6 3} Kc4 {-1000.12/49 4} 140. Re1 {+42.46/6 2.9} Kb4
{-1000.12/52 4} 141. Ne5 {+44.28/6 2.6} Kc5 {-1000.13/51 4} 142. Kg8
{+42.33/6 2.4} Kd5 {-1000.12/53 4} 143. Ra1 {+41.26/6 2.3} Kxe5
{-1000.19/43 2.7} 144. Ra2 {+69.56/6 2.1} Ke4 {-1000.21/55 4} 145. Kg7
{+50.07/6 1.9} Kd3 {-1000.17/59 4} 146. Ra5 {+41.53/6 1.8} Kc4
{-1000.14/58 5} 147. Rf5 {+38.61/6 1.8} Kd3 {-1000.15/60 4} 148. Rf8
{+38.09/6 1.8} Kd4 {-1000.15/61 4} 149. Kf7 {+38.42/6 1.8} Kd3
{-1000.14/67 9} 150. Ra8 {+32.86/6 1.8} Kc3 {-1000.14/65 4} 151. Ke8
{+29.87/6 1.8} Kd4 {-1000.15/61 4} 152. Kd8 {+31.04/6 1.8} Ke4
{-1000.15/62 4} 153. Kc7 {+27.75/6 1.8} Kd4 {-1000.14/72 8} 154. Kb6
{+27.82/6 1.8} Ke5 {-1000.14/64 4} 155. Ka5 {+25.54/6 1.8} Ke4
{-1000.15/56 4} 156. Kb4 {+23.93/6 1.8} Ke3 {-1000.13/60 4} 157. Kc3
{+23.99/6 1.8} Kf4 {-1000.12/69 3} 158. Kc2 {+21.95/6 1.8} Ke5
{-1000.13/52 9} 159. Ra1 {+20.43/6 1.8} Kd5 {-1000.13/62 7} 160. Rh1
{+19.60/6 1.8} Ke5 {-1000.14/61 12} 161. Kb3 {+18.04/6 11} Ke4
{-1000.13/64 5} 162. Ka4 {+17.68/6 10} Kf5 {-1000.14/53 5} 163. Ka5
{+16.00/6 9} Ke4 {-1000.14/61 4} 164. Ka6 {+16.45/6 9} Kf3 {-1000.14/62 4}
165. Kb7 {+15.44/6 8} Kg2 {-1000.14/66 4} 166. Rh6 {+14.48/7 8} Kf3
{-1000.14/56 4} 167. Kb8 {+14.37/7 7} Ke4 {-1000.15/54 4} 168. Rh7
{+14.39/6 7} Kf5 {-1000.15/57 4} 169. Re7 {+13.46/6 6} Kf6 {-1000.15/65 4}
170. Re1 {+13.15/7 6} Kf5 {-1000.14/68 0.2} 171. Ka7 {+12.86/6 6} Kf4
{-1000.13/75 4} 172. Re8 {+12.59/6 5} Kg5 {-1000.13/70 4} 173. Rb8
{+12.18/6 5} Kf5 {-1000.14/63 4} 174. Ka6 {+12.96/6 5} Kg5 {-1000.14/59 4}
175. Rb2 {+12.88/6 4} Kf4 {-1000.15/53 4} 176. Kb5 {+12.57/6 4} Ke5
{-1000.13/59 4} 177. Kc4 {+13.03/6 4} Kf6 {-1000.12/65 0.2} 178. Kd5
{+14.74/6 4} Kf5 {-1000.11/72 0.1} 179. Rb1 {+13.55/6 3} Kf4
{-1000.11/62 4} 180. Kd4 {+10.13/7 3} Kf5 {-1000.11/62 4} 181. Re1
{+7.10/7 2.7} Kg4 {-1000.10/67 1.1} 182. Rf1 {+8.14/7 3} Kg5
{-1000.09/71 0.7} 183. Ke4 {+6.95/7 2.7} Kg6 {-1000.08/70 1.8} 184. Ke5
{+7.15/8 2.8} Kg7 {-1000.07/74 1.6} 185. Kf5 {+14.45/7 2.6} Kf7
{-1000.06/74 4} 186. Re1 {+128.00/4 2.0} Kg7 {-1000.05/107 2.2} 187. Re7+
{+128.00/3 4} Kf8 {-1000.04/245 0.1} 188. Kf6 {+128.00/4 2.5} Kg8
{-1000.03/245 0.1} 189. Re4 {+128.00/4 3} Kf8 {-1000.02/245 0.1} 190. Rd4
{+128.00/4 2.8} Kg8 {-1000.02/245 0.1} 191. Rh4 {+128.00/3 2.8} Kf8
{-1000.01/245 0.1} 192. Rh8# {+128.00/2 1.2}
{Xboard adjudication: Checkmate} 1-0
Very good resultsAdminX wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 11:26 am Saw this post last night and decided to try, I don't have a six core system. I have a quad core box with hyperthreading. I used the -75 comtempt with Stockfish 11BMI vs LC0 63426 using 1 RTX2070 Super. I ran a 40 game test which finished this morning. Time control was 4'2 Blitz, Stockfish 11 using 3 Threads, and LC0 with 2 Threads. Hash was set to 8192 (32 GB Total System Memory) for each in the Fritz 17 GUI using Perfect 2019 Opening Book, with 3-6 piece SYZYGY.
Code: Select all
HAKIN94LIFE, Blitz 4.0min+2.0sec 0 1 Stockfish 11 64 BMI2 +1/=38/-1 50.00% 20.0/40 400.00 2 Lc0 v0.25.1+git.69105b4-Net60 +1/=38/-1 50.00% 20.0/40 400.00
What do you think about the result of a match on your machine between RTX 2070 Super used Leela ver.0.25.1 with 63426net and Stockfish 11 with default (+24) contempt?Hai wrote: ↑Sat May 09, 2020 11:57 amVery good resultsAdminX wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 11:26 am Saw this post last night and decided to try, I don't have a six core system. I have a quad core box with hyperthreading. I used the -75 comtempt with Stockfish 11BMI vs LC0 63426 using 1 RTX2070 Super. I ran a 40 game test which finished this morning. Time control was 4'2 Blitz, Stockfish 11 using 3 Threads, and LC0 with 2 Threads. Hash was set to 8192 (32 GB Total System Memory) for each in the Fritz 17 GUI using Perfect 2019 Opening Book, with 3-6 piece SYZYGY.Code: Select all
HAKIN94LIFE, Blitz 4.0min+2.0sec 0 1 Stockfish 11 64 BMI2 +1/=38/-1 50.00% 20.0/40 400.00 2 Lc0 v0.25.1+git.69105b4-Net60 +1/=38/-1 50.00% 20.0/40 400.00