Ethereal 12 (3400) loses to God! (Most Amazing Game I've Seen)

[Alayan]

Man, where are the Ethereal wins threads smh

Sorry buddy, I'm a huge fan of Ethereal too...will share a nice game or two when I can.

It would be appreciated.

[jp]

To a farmer, there is nothing more beautiful than a big old pickup load of manure.**

That's totally okay. It would not be okay if the farmer tries to distract you from the manure by talking about cow moos, refuses to answer questions about whether he agrees that there is a pickup load of manure, etc.


(** Probably not true, but we can pretend it is, as long as no farmers read this thread.)

[chrisw]

White could maybe draw, but not win. Isn’t the main feature if this game that Leela/AZ-MCTS technology saw the drawn theme way way back, played for it, and held the state that was the draw. The AB program, essentially evaluating each node as if it had no past, was just a stand alone node, had no idea of flow. AB program had no idea it was stuck and had nothing it could do. That’s the level of the difference, simply orders of magnitude of more “understanding” of the GAME, as a result of understanding the flow of the game.

Oh man, how do you not get tired of constantly repeating that nonsense???
White missed/blundered/bugged a win at least 10 times in this game.
The only one who has no idea about anything seems to be you. Your knowledge of chess seems to be frozen in time when you wrote your last engine 20+ years ago. Or 1500 Elo ago...

Actually almost fifty years ago since I played serious chess, but my level of understanding remains. 221 BCF = 2400 FIDE Elo equivalent.
If you don’t get it, you don’t get it, nothing I can do. Your level of understanding plus lack of playful brain (rush to fixed judgement) is a handicap. Have a nice day.

[yurikvelo]

Isn’t the main feature if this game that Leela/AZ-MCTS technology saw the drawn theme way way back, played for it, and held the state that was the draw. The AB program, essentially evaluating each node as if it had no past, was just a stand alone node, had no idea of flow.

With clear hash (fresh run), SF (AB-engine) treat 64. Qd8 as blunder in less than 700K nodes (230 milliseconds on low-end smartphone for $120) and find draw for Rook @ h-file in 1.49 MN (0.5 sec on smartphone)

AB engines are "written by hand" by their authors. You cannot say where ELO come from. High-elo doesn't necessarily mean it is "strong all-around player" who never blunders. Some aspects of game could have not yet been covered by author's efforts (and if he does that - might gain some +20 ELO).

AB program had no idea it was stuck and had nothing it could do. That’s the level of the difference, simply orders of magnitude of more “understanding” of the GAME, as a result of understanding the flow of the game.

True. There was always dilemma "knowledge vs depth". Heavy evaluation function vs speed/depth.
This game is "bullet game", Ethereal reach D=19 +-2 for 30 moves prior to blunder @ 64.That is <1 sec per move @ low-end smartphone.
More knowledge favour in STC, more speed favour in LTC.
Lc0 win in "WCCC7: Blitz Bonanza" proves this (the first time in eight Computer Chess Championships that Stockfish didn't win the tournament).
All 4 finalists were NN, not AB.
While @ LTC - AB still plays good.

[jp]

That’s the level of the difference, simply orders of magnitude of more “understanding” of the GAME, as a result of understanding the flow of the game.

Oh man, how do you not get tired of constantly repeating that nonsense???
White missed/blundered/bugged a win at least 10 times in this game..

If you don’t get it, you don’t get it, nothing I can do. Your level of understanding plus lack of playful brain (rush to fixed judgement) is a handicap.

I think we should really all agree that Ethereal blundered terribly on move 18 in a totally won position (that may still be won after the blunder). Not much understanding needed there.

[jp]

With clear hash (fresh run), SF (AB-engine) treat 64. Qd8 as blunder in less than 700K nodes (230 milliseconds on low-end smartphone for $120) and find draw for Rook @ h-file in 1.49 MN (0.5 sec on smartphone)

It'd be interesting to see at what depth and number of nodes Ethereal finds the draw in that position.

[yurikvelo]

It'd be interesting to see at what depth and number of nodes Ethereal finds the draw in that position.

Code: Select all

FEN: 3Q4/5p2/7k/4b1pP/1p1R4/1Pr5/p3r3/K6R b - - 3 64				
Syzygy 6-man				
Ethereal12.00-x64-pext:				
1	5	3,79	64.	... Bxd4
2	16	3,79	64.	... Bxd4
3	77	-44,26	64.	... Rxb3
4	251	2,99	64.	... Bxd4
5	395	2,99	64.	... Bxd4
6	867	2,1	64.	... Rxb3
7	 1k	2,1	64.	... Rxb3
8	 2k	2,36	64.	... Rxb3
9	 10k	2,99	64.	... Rxb3
10	 20k	2,85	64.	... Rxb3
11	 59k	2,99	64.	... Rxb3
12	 67k	3,1	64.	... Rxb3
13	 89k	2,43	64.	... Rxb3
14	 297k	2,58	64.	... Rxb3
15	 566k	3	64.	... Rxb3
16	 892k	2,21	64.	... Rxb3
17	 1 461k	1,94	64.	... Rxb3
18	 2 308k	1,67	64.	... Rxb3
19	 3 207k	1,38	64.	... Rxb3
20	 5 623k	1,33	64.	... Rxb3
 21-	 7 457k	0,84	64.	... Rxb3
21	 8 679k	0,84	64.	... Rxb3
 22-	 12 291k	0,7	64.	... Rxb3
 22-	 12 826k	0,56	64.	... Rxb3
22	 13 180k	0,55	64.	... Rxb3
23	 14 394k	0,55	64.	... Rxb3
 24-	 16 827k	0,41	64.	... Rxb3
 24-	 19 651k	0,27	64.	... Rxb3
 24-	 25 144k	0,06	64.	... Rxb3
24	 29 601k	0,01	64.	... Rxb3
25	 32 759k	0,01	64.	... Rxb3
26	 37 148k	0,01	64.	... Rxb3
27	 41 594k	0,01	64.	... Rxb3
28	 45 002k	0	64.	... Rxb3
29	 53 490k	0	64.	... Rxb3
30	 55 710k	0	64.	... Rxb3
31	 59 976k	0	64.	... Rxb3
32	 65 794k	0	64.	... Rxb3
33	 79 295k	0	64.	... Rxb3
 34-	 99 619k	-0,14	64.	... Rf3
 34-	 154 530k	-0,28	64.	... Rf3
 34-	 161 128k	-0,49	64.	... Rf3
------------------------------------------------------------------
 34-	 188 667k	-0,8	64.	... Rf3
34	 223 305k	-0,92	64.	... Rf3
 35-	 290 624k	-1,06	64.	... Rf3
 35-	 327 679k	-1,2	64.	... Rf3
35	 471 870k	-1,25	64.	... Rf3
 36+	 583 676k	-1,11		
 36-	 619 437k	-1,25	64.	... Rf3
36	 721 300k	-1,15	64.	... Rf3
 37+	 1 405 331k	-1,01		

Code: Select all

no-Syzygy

1	5	3,79	64. ... Bxd4
2	15	3,79	64. ... Bxd4
3	73	-44,26	64. ... Rxb3
4	255	2,99	64. ... Bxd4
5	497	2,94	64. ... Bxd4
6	 1k	3,39	64. ... Rxb3
7	 2k	2,1	64. ... Rxb3
8	 3k	2,19	64. ... Rxb3
9	 8k	2,19	64. ... Rxb3
10	 29k	3,64	64. ... Rxb3
11	 42k	2,84	64. ... Rxb3
12	 84k	2,91	64. ... Rxb3
13	 163k	3,02	64. ... Rxb3
14	 229k	2,7	64. ... Rxb3
15	 514k	2,81	64. ... Rxb3
16	 858k	1,23	64. ... Rf3
------------------------------------------------------------------
17	 996k	-0,51	64. ... Rf3
18	 1 529k	-0,51	64. ... Rf3
19	 1 827k	-0,62	64. ... Rf3
20	 2 359k	-0,73	64. ... Rf3
21	 3 816k	-0,97	64. ... Rf3
 22-	 6 638k	-1,11	64. ... Rf3
22	 7 040k	-1,03	64. ... Rf3
 23+	 8 129k	-0,89	
23	 10 131k	-0,96	64. ... Rf3
 24+	 10 942k	-0,82	
 24-	 11 890k	-0,96	64. ... Rf3
24	 12 365k	-0,98	64. ... Rf3
 25+	 15 386k	-0,84	
 25-	 20 860k	-0,98	64. ... Rf3
25	 24 332k	-0,91	64. ... Rf3
 26+	 33 109k	-0,77	
 26-	 34 764k	-0,91	64. ... Rf3
26	 35 668k	-0,84	64. ... Rf3
 27-	 40 683k	-0,98	64. ... Rf3
27	 49 233k	-1,01	64. ... Rf3
 28+	 55 063k	-0,87	
 28-	 57 953k	-1,01	64. ... Rf3
28	 63 331k	-0,95	64. ... Rf3
 29+	 97 783k	-0,81	
 29-	 103 144k	-0,95	64. ... Rf3
29	 107 671k	-0,95	64. ... Rf3
 30+	 117 086k	-0,81	
 30-	 125 999k	-0,95	64. ... Rf3
 30-	 192 261k	-1,16	64. ... Rf3
30	 195 365k	-1,1	64. ... Rf3
 31+	 200 582k	-0,96	
 31-	 210 317k	-1,1	64. ... Rf3
31	 213 468k	-1,01	64. ... Rf3
 32-	 246 390k	-1,15	64. ... Rf3
32	 292 346k	-0,94	64. ... Rf3

Code: Select all

no-Syzygy

FEN: 8/5p2/7k/3Qb1pP/1p1R4/1Pr5/p3r3/K6R w - - 2 64			
			
Ethereal12.00-x64-pext:			
1	4	7,18	64.Rxb4
2	25	6,19	64.Rxb4
3	55	9,9	64.Rxb4
4	275	5,23	64.Qb5
5	504	5,9	64.Qb5
6	 1k	5,94	64.Re4
7	 2k	5,99	64.Re4
8	 3k	5,89	64.Re4
9	 4k	7,07	64.Re4
10	 41k	4,17	64.Rhd1
11	 54k	4,63	64.Rhd1
12	 67k	4,44	64.Rhd1
13	 98k	4,52	64.Rhd1
14	 385k	4,5	64.Rf1
15	 1 062k	3,89	64.Rhd1
16	 1 723k	0,41	64.Qd8
17	 1 977k	-0,01	64.Qd8
18	 2 048k	-0,01	64.Qd8
------------------------------------------------------------------
19	 2 733k	-0,01	64.Rf1
20	 2 918k	0,01	64.Rf1
21	 3 216k	0,01	64.Rf1
22	 3 508k	0,01	64.Rf1
23	 4 226k	0	64.Rhd1
24	 4 897k	0	64.Rhd1
25	 6 094k	0	64.Rhd1
26	 6 610k	0	64.Rhd1
27	 10 744k	0	64.Rhd1
28	 19 842k	0	64.Rhd1
29	 26 386k	0	64.Rhd1
30	 38 132k	0	64.Rhd1
31	 39 670k	0	64.Rhd1
32	 64 163k	0	64.Rhd1
33	 86 183k	0	64.Rhd1

Code: Select all

Syzygy 6-man				

1	4	7,18	64.Rxb4
2	25	6,19	64.Rxb4
3	56	9,9	64.Rxb4
4	245	5,23	64.Qb5
5	460	5,97	64.Qb5
6	 1k	7,39	64.Re4
7	 2k	5,99	64.Re4
8	 4k	8,59	64.Re4
9	 5k	8,67	64.Re4
10	 33k	4,32	64.Rf1
11	 41k	4,16	64.Rf1
12	 67k	3,75	64.Rf1
13	 74k	3,83	64.Rf1
14	 269k	3,68	64.Rhd1
15	 395k	3,61	64.Rhd1
16	 630k	3,57	64.Rhd1
17	 971k	3,53	64.Rf1
18	 1 181k	3,93	64.Rf1
19	 3 143k	2,01	64.Rhd1
 20+	 4 409k	2,15	64.Qd8
 20+	 4 427k	2,29	64.Qd8
 20+	 4 449k	2,5	64.Qd8
 20-	 4 616k	1,87	
 20-	 5 389k	1,41	
 20-	 6 494k	0,72	
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
20	 8 748k	0	64.Rhd1
21	 8 900k	0	64.Rhd1
22	 9 541k	0	64.Rhd1
23	 11 160k	0	64.Rhd1
24	 12 037k	0	64.Rhd1
25	 14 651k	0	64.Rhd1
26	 15 372k	0	64.Rhd1
27	 17 201k	0	64.Rhd1
28	 18 667k	0	64.Rhd1
29	 22 988k	0	64.Rhd1
30	 28 018k	0	64.Rhd1
31	 37 341k	0	64.Rhd1
32	 73 334k	0	64.Rhd1
33	 114 787k	0	64.Rhd1

[jp]

no-Syzygy

FEN: 8/5p2/7k/3Qb1pP/1p1R4/1Pr5/p3r3/K6R w - - 2 64

Ethereal12.00-x64-pext:
...
18 2 048k -0,01 64.Qd8
------------------------------------------------------------------
19 2 733k -0,01 64.Rf1
20 2 918k 0,01 64.Rf1

Thanks. So Ethereal 12.00 without TBs finds (and sticks to) the draw at depth 19? Interesting.

[mirek]

Witness this amazing game.

Truly amazing, thanks for sharing! I think kingscrusher would love to make a video from this game.
PS: I can't believe the amount of negativity and pointless remarks you had to face just by sharing this game Not sure if it proves any comfort but I think you've dealt with the shitstorm very well and I was 100% on your side all the time.

[Collingwood]

I can't believe the amount of negativity and pointless remarks you had to face just by sharing this game

What do you regard as negativity and pointless remarks? Pointing out the fact of the game's blunders? How is that negativity? That's just fact. Do you think the actual moves and their evaluation are pointless? It's telling that all the oversensitive admirers of this game don't want to talk about actual chess moves in the game.