What is the value of logical cores ( HT) for chess ?

[mwyoung]

I finished assembly on Jan 25th and it took most of the next week to install software, move data from the old computers and set up my dev environment. Since then I've had it running 32 to 44 threads at 4.1+ghz 24/7. I run with PBO on.

Would you mind mentioning the builder? I have friends that are afraid of building and I'd like to add them to my "run, don't walk" list.

You wouldn’t happen to be be on the US east coast - I would like somebody who would know what their doing to take a look. Used to build my own PC in their early 90’s - But you were only laying out a few hundred dollars - something went wrong , no big deal. Totally different animal when you’re laying out a few thousand , hence the reason I had a system build. My machine was a lemon for the get go - it was never properly stressed test and and it was crashing out of the box after 10 minutes. It was initially Linux - but there is no available release kernel that actually supports RTX 2060 Super( there will be soon with Ubuntu 20.4 LTS) , the fact that it ran at was just by chance. Had it converted to Windows 10 , but I always thought 80c was a little hot , since anytime it went over 80C - bad things were happening. Much easier to sleep at night , knowing it’s not over 60c if leave it on 24x7 going full tilt. My recommendation is to avoid getting a theadripper machine from Velocity Micro - can’t speak to their other offerings. I have a lemon , but there is no lemon law for a computer like there is for cars. My motherboard will take a 3990x and after a 2 or three years , I will ha e somebody who knows what they Are doing , do the upgrade. By then , that chip will be down to $2k or less and it will be a nice upgrade .

I would get some thermal Grizzly. When It arrives dismount the cooler and then re-seat the processor in the socket. Improperly seating and torquing the screws in the right order is the number one cause of issues with Threadripper chips. If it's not done properly it can AND DOES generate all kinds of issues. You don't need to take the CPU out of the socket, just loosen the screws in the proper (reverse) order (the order is stamped in to the metal shield on the socket.) and then re-tighten them in the proper order and make sure they are all snug. Then apply thermal grizzly ( after the top of the cpu has been cleaned of the old thermal compound). Then remount the cooler.

This procedure solves 95% of the issues with flaky behavior. i.e random reboots and other weird behavior that has no apparent cause.

Regards,

Zenmastur

This could help, but the question remains. Does his AIO have full die coverage for the Threadripper! If not he will never get great cooling. Just a usable Threadripper with issues. His Threadripper has four 8 core chiplets surrounding the I/O. You must have full die coverage with your AIO.

[mbabigian]

You wouldn’t happen to be be on the US east coast - I would like somebody who would know what their doing to take a look.

Unfortunately, I'm in Nevada or I'd be glad to take a look for you. Maybe no lemon law, but if they provide a warranty I'd be dumping it in their lap or asking for my money back. Although not seating the processor can cause problems as Zenmastur says, the CPU installation is nearly foolproof. Besides, you seem to only have problems when it gets hot. The CPU socket and bracket was engineered to perfection by AMD and you'd have to be grossly incompetent to screw up installation and torquing (they give you a torque wrench in the box). I'd look at what brand AIO they used and see if others are having success with that model on the 3970X (look on the computer forums). If so, it is probably just a matter of removing the waterblock, cleaning the old grease off and applying the correct amount evenly over the chip and reapplying the block. The whole procedure should take less than 20min.

The only other thing I can think of would be that the water pump is defective and the flow rate is abysmally low.

My gut, if it was my machine, would be not to touch it and go the refund/warranty route first.

I feel for you. This is why I decided to build over buy built. I have decades of experience and my antistatic procedures are done by no builder I know of as they just don't get how static you can't feel or see, ruins modern IC's. The processes are so small now, transistors are only a few atoms wide. Even static discharge that a human can't feel, will turn those transistors into vapor. Many of the "weird" problems people have with their computers are due to poor build procedures.

[Zenmastur]

I finished assembly on Jan 25th and it took most of the next week to install software, move data from the old computers and set up my dev environment. Since then I've had it running 32 to 44 threads at 4.1+ghz 24/7. I run with PBO on.

Would you mind mentioning the builder? I have friends that are afraid of building and I'd like to add them to my "run, don't walk" list.

You wouldn’t happen to be be on the US east coast - I would like somebody who would know what their doing to take a look. Used to build my own PC in their early 90’s - But you were only laying out a few hundred dollars - something went wrong , no big deal. Totally different animal when you’re laying out a few thousand , hence the reason I had a system build. My machine was a lemon for the get go - it was never properly stressed test and and it was crashing out of the box after 10 minutes. It was initially Linux - but there is no available release kernel that actually supports RTX 2060 Super( there will be soon with Ubuntu 20.4 LTS) , the fact that it ran at was just by chance. Had it converted to Windows 10 , but I always thought 80c was a little hot , since anytime it went over 80C - bad things were happening. Much easier to sleep at night , knowing it’s not over 60c if leave it on 24x7 going full tilt. My recommendation is to avoid getting a theadripper machine from Velocity Micro - can’t speak to their other offerings. I have a lemon , but there is no lemon law for a computer like there is for cars. My motherboard will take a 3990x and after a 2 or three years , I will ha e somebody who knows what they Are doing , do the upgrade. By then , that chip will be down to $2k or less and it will be a nice upgrade .

I would get some thermal Grizzly. When It arrives dismount the cooler and then re-seat the processor in the socket. Improperly seating and torquing the screws in the right order is the number one cause of issues with Threadripper chips. If it's not done properly it can AND DOES generate all kinds of issues. You don't need to take the CPU out of the socket, just loosen the screws in the proper (reverse) order (the order is stamped in to the metal shield on the socket.) and then re-tighten them in the proper order and make sure they are all snug. Then apply thermal grizzly ( after the top of the cpu has been cleaned of the old thermal compound). Then remount the cooler.

This procedure solves 95% of the issues with flaky behavior. i.e random reboots and other weird behavior that has no apparent cause.

Regards,

Zenmastur

This could help, but the question remains. Does his AIO have full die coverage for the Threadripper! If not he will never get great cooling. Just a usable Threadripper with issues. His Threadripper has four 8 core chiplets surrounding the I/O. You must have full die coverage with your AIO.

A 3970X only has 4 CCDs. i.e. 4 * 8-cores = 32-cores/64-threads. But I agree, full IHS coverage is best. I'm wondering what size the radiator is. 2 x 140mm (referred to as 280 mm) is minimum and 3 x 120mm (referred to as 360mm) is better. Many builds use 2 radiators. Is it in the front or the top? How cleanly are the cables routed, is it a high air-flow case. Does the front and top have adequate access to outside air. i.e are there glass panels or filters that obstruct the air flow? Did they use high quality fans? Is the inside of the case cramped? ect. ect. A picture or two inside the case might help, just to see what kind of work they did.

Regards,

Zenmastur

[Zenmastur]

You wouldn’t happen to be be on the US east coast - I would like somebody who would know what their doing to take a look.

Unfortunately, I'm in Nevada or I'd be glad to take a look for you. Maybe no lemon law, but if they provide a warranty I'd be dumping it in their lap or asking for my money back. Although not seating the processor can cause problems as Zenmastur says, the CPU installation is nearly foolproof. Besides, you seem to only have problems when it gets hot. The CPU socket and bracket was engineered to perfection by AMD and you'd have to be grossly incompetent to screw up installation and torquing (they give you a torque wrench in the box). I'd look at what brand AIO they used and see if others are having success with that model on the 3970X (look on the computer forums). If so, it is probably just a matter of removing the waterblock, cleaning the old grease off and applying the correct amount evenly over the chip and reapplying the block. The whole procedure should take less than 20min.

You would be surprised at what some monkeys can do to screw up foolproof setups! It's almost as if they do it on purpose, or they don't care, or they are pissed of at their boss the day they built your system etc.

The only other thing I can think of would be that the water pump is defective and the flow rate is abysmally low.

That's definately worth checking!

My gut, if it was my machine, would be not to touch it and go the refund/warranty route first.

Agreed! It it's not working right, make then fix it!

I feel for you. This is why I decided to build over buy built. I have decades of experience and my antistatic procedures are done by no builder I know of as they just don't get how static you can't feel or see, ruins modern IC's. The processes are so small now, transistors are only a few atoms wide. Even static discharge that a human can't feel, will turn those transistors into vapor. Many of the "weird" problems people have with their computers are due to poor build procedures.

Building your own has it's advantages.

Regards,

Zenmastur

[mwyoung]

I finished assembly on Jan 25th and it took most of the next week to install software, move data from the old computers and set up my dev environment. Since then I've had it running 32 to 44 threads at 4.1+ghz 24/7. I run with PBO on.

Would you mind mentioning the builder? I have friends that are afraid of building and I'd like to add them to my "run, don't walk" list.

You wouldn’t happen to be be on the US east coast - I would like somebody who would know what their doing to take a look. Used to build my own PC in their early 90’s - But you were only laying out a few hundred dollars - something went wrong , no big deal. Totally different animal when you’re laying out a few thousand , hence the reason I had a system build. My machine was a lemon for the get go - it was never properly stressed test and and it was crashing out of the box after 10 minutes. It was initially Linux - but there is no available release kernel that actually supports RTX 2060 Super( there will be soon with Ubuntu 20.4 LTS) , the fact that it ran at was just by chance. Had it converted to Windows 10 , but I always thought 80c was a little hot , since anytime it went over 80C - bad things were happening. Much easier to sleep at night , knowing it’s not over 60c if leave it on 24x7 going full tilt. My recommendation is to avoid getting a theadripper machine from Velocity Micro - can’t speak to their other offerings. I have a lemon , but there is no lemon law for a computer like there is for cars. My motherboard will take a 3990x and after a 2 or three years , I will ha e somebody who knows what they Are doing , do the upgrade. By then , that chip will be down to $2k or less and it will be a nice upgrade .

I would get some thermal Grizzly. When It arrives dismount the cooler and then re-seat the processor in the socket. Improperly seating and torquing the screws in the right order is the number one cause of issues with Threadripper chips. If it's not done properly it can AND DOES generate all kinds of issues. You don't need to take the CPU out of the socket, just loosen the screws in the proper (reverse) order (the order is stamped in to the metal shield on the socket.) and then re-tighten them in the proper order and make sure they are all snug. Then apply thermal grizzly ( after the top of the cpu has been cleaned of the old thermal compound). Then remount the cooler.

This procedure solves 95% of the issues with flaky behavior. i.e random reboots and other weird behavior that has no apparent cause.

Regards,

Zenmastur

This could help, but the question remains. Does his AIO have full die coverage for the Threadripper! If not he will never get great cooling. Just a usable Threadripper with issues. His Threadripper has four 8 core chiplets surrounding the I/O. You must have full die coverage with your AIO.

A 3970X only has 4 CCDs. i.e. 4 * 8-cores = 32-cores/64-threads. But I agree, full IHS coverage is best. I'm wondering what size the radiator is. 2 x 140mm (referred to as 280 mm) is minimum and 3 x 120mm (referred to as 360mm) is better. Many builds use 2 radiators. Is it in the front or the top? How cleanly are the cables routed, is it a high air-flow case. Does the front and top have adequate access to outside air. i.e are there glass panels or filters that obstruct the air flow? Did they use high quality fans? Is the inside of the case cramped? ect. ect. A picture or two inside the case might help, just to see what kind of work they did.

Regards,

Zenmastur

Our just tell us what AIO he is using. I guess someone else built his computer? A picture would help. This fix is not hard and he can do it himself. But we need to see the computer! Number of fans, design layout, and case.

People do not understand. You can not just throw components into any case and call it good. Heat is the enemy, and you need a good design, and layout to avoid problems. And for sure if you are using your computer for engine testing.

[MikeB]

I finished assembly on Jan 25th and it took most of the next week to install software, move data from the old computers and set up my dev environment. Since then I've had it running 32 to 44 threads at 4.1+ghz 24/7. I run with PBO on.

Would you mind mentioning the builder? I have friends that are afraid of building and I'd like to add them to my "run, don't walk" list.

You wouldn’t happen to be be on the US east coast - I would like somebody who would know what their doing to take a look. Used to build my own PC in their early 90’s - But you were only laying out a few hundred dollars - something went wrong , no big deal. Totally different animal when you’re laying out a few thousand , hence the reason I had a system build. My machine was a lemon for the get go - it was never properly stressed test and and it was crashing out of the box after 10 minutes. It was initially Linux - but there is no available release kernel that actually supports RTX 2060 Super( there will be soon with Ubuntu 20.4 LTS) , the fact that it ran at was just by chance. Had it converted to Windows 10 , but I always thought 80c was a little hot , since anytime it went over 80C - bad things were happening. Much easier to sleep at night , knowing it’s not over 60c if leave it on 24x7 going full tilt. My recommendation is to avoid getting a theadripper machine from Velocity Micro - can’t speak to their other offerings. I have a lemon , but there is no lemon law for a computer like there is for cars. My motherboard will take a 3990x and after a 2 or three years , I will ha e somebody who knows what they Are doing , do the upgrade. By then , that chip will be down to $2k or less and it will be a nice upgrade .

I would get some thermal Grizzly. When It arrives dismount the cooler and then re-seat the processor in the socket. Improperly seating and torquing the screws in the right order is the number one cause of issues with Threadripper chips. If it's not done properly it can AND DOES generate all kinds of issues. You don't need to take the CPU out of the socket, just loosen the screws in the proper (reverse) order (the order is stamped in to the metal shield on the socket.) and then re-tighten them in the proper order and make sure they are all snug. Then apply thermal grizzly ( after the top of the cpu has been cleaned of the old thermal compound). Then remount the cooler.

This procedure solves 95% of the issues with flaky behavior. i.e random reboots and other weird behavior that has no apparent cause.

Regards,

Zenmastur

This could help, but the question remains. Does his AIO have full die coverage for the Threadripper! If not he will never get great cooling. Just a usable Threadripper with issues. His Threadripper has four 8 core chiplets surrounding the I/O. You must have full die coverage with your AIO.

A 3970X only has 4 CCDs. i.e. 4 * 8-cores = 32-cores/64-threads. But I agree, full IHS coverage is best. I'm wondering what size the radiator is. 2 x 140mm (referred to as 280 mm) is minimum and 3 x 120mm (referred to as 360mm) is better. Many builds use 2 radiators. Is it in the front or the top? How cleanly are the cables routed, is it a high air-flow case. Does the front and top have adequate access to outside air. i.e are there glass panels or filters that obstruct the air flow? Did they use high quality fans? Is the inside of the case cramped? ect. ect. A picture or two inside the case might help, just to see what kind of work they did.

Regards,

Zenmastur

Our just tell us what AIO he is using. I guess someone else built his computer? A picture would help. This fix is not hard and he can do it himself. But we need to see the computer! Number of fans, design layout, and case.

People do not understand. You can not just throw components into any case and call it good. Heat is the enemy, and you need a good design, and layout to avoid problems. And for sure if you are using your computer for engine testing.

I just ordered a wraith threadripper cooler and some thermal paste and will give a shot and replace the one that is there that looks totally bogus - it has the builder logo on it. Should arrive Friday. Keeping my fingers cross. Right now, I can use 32 threads and it stays right at 80 - well below the AMD limit of 95C, using PBO - freq is ~4.04 , but I also know heat is a CPU killer over time. Asus's limit is 110C with TRX40 Pro mb - so now worries there. For 24x7 runs, I will keep down to about 62C.

If I kill a process running 64 threads, it will drop 40C in three seconds - so all signs are pointing to a crappy CPU cooler and not airflow or fan performance. - so I'm a fairly optimistic that my lemon will soon be lemonade ;>

[Paloma]

Hi Mike,

read this: http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... #pid585262

maybe it's helps.

[mbabigian]

so I'm a fairly optimistic that my lemon will soon be lemonade ;>

Mike I am so glad you are doing this. These machines are so much fun and you shouldn't stress about using them every day. I'm glad I spoke up when you quoted your temps. I devoured a huge amount of build data and experiences of early adopters before pulling the trigger myself so I knew what was normal if I had bad parts or a build issue.

To make you feel a bit better, here the problems I had to deal with because I didn't go your route.

1) The radiators I bought are way longer than they should be due to the brand (480mm rad way longer than 480mm). This made my top 420mm not fit. In hindsight I will buy rads from Alphacool in the future. So I had to buy a slimmer 420 for the top. The original 420 will be built into a computer for my wife next month.

2) One of my plastic quick disconnects started leaking the second I started the leak test. Defective unit from EKWB. I will NEVER buy anything from them again. In my opinion their products are poorly engineered junk. Ordered "less expensive" stainless quick disconnects from Koolance. Koolance is awesome.

3) I have push fans on the front 480s and push pull on the top 420. Due to godawful engineering of the fans, the fans in pull configuration whacked the radiator making a bone grinding ticking sound. The brand of terribly engineered fans? EKWB. Bought instead from corsair - their customers service is amazing and they design their on fans. Not only is EKWB crap, there is a 25% tariff you pay when the goods arrive on your doorstep (US) making their garbage wildly uncompetitive garbage. Oh! I almost forgot. One 120mm fan was DOA right out of the sealed box. You couldn't even free spin it with your finger. Felt like it had sand in it.

4) After operating about 5 days, one port on one of my fan controllers died. Due to Corsair's exemplary customer service I had a replacement in 2 days and they told me, don't bother sending back the other. I now have 5 more control ports than I intended and have put a few to good use.

Did I enjoy building this new machine - hell yes, and would do it again. Were there a few days when I wanted to punch the wall - yep that too.

[yurikvelo]

AMD Ryzen 3400G

Stockfish_20050217_8T - Stockfish_20050217_4T
Syzygy 6-man, Hash=2048, TC = 60" + 1"
RepeatStartPosition=1
StartPGNEPD=C:\Inst\CHESS\noob_3moves.epd

99,0/175
57% +49
+30-7=138
0101======11====0==1======1========1==01
=====11=========1=======1===============
=1===1=1=1==1=====1=0=1=1==1===1===1====
=11=====1==0======1============1========
====1==10======

[Alayan]

The usefulness of SMT is thread-count dependent.