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Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:52 pm
by towforce
Ovyron wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:01 pm
Because some positions require tactics, and others require strategy, perhaps something like Ferdy's Aiquiri could have the solution, by having a strategical engine and a tactical engine suggest a move, and have a third judge engine that knows what the position needs pick one of the moves.
It looks to me as if you're heading in a direction I suggested over 20 years ago, based on the AI concept called Case Based Reasoning. My suggestion was to have multiple evaluation functions and to select which one to use based on a table containing positions and a matching evaluation function index. Find the closest position to the current one in the table, and use the matching eval function to evaluate the position.
A system almost guaranteed to just keep on getting better and better imo!
Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:13 pm
by Dann Corbit
Progress with x256 net (doing better than the x128 net):
Code: Select all
Analysis of G:\chess\epd\ACT2.epd
Analyzing engine: Lc0
10/29/2019 9:25:14 AM Level: 720 Seconds
Source : List of EPD/PGN files
G:\chess\epd\ACT2.epd
G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd
Colours : White moves=True, Black moves=True
Direction : forward
Games (PGN) : From 1 to 999999
Moves : From 1 to 250
Positions (EPD) : From 1 to 999999
Use Engine(s) : List
Lc0
Use seconds per move : 720 Seconds per move
Analysis Lines : Minimum search depth=2
Activate abort analysis : False
1) Nd5-b4 a3-a4
2) Ba8-h1 Ba8-h1 * 10 Seconds
3) e6xd7 Bf1-a6
4) Rg1-h1 Rg1-h1 * 7 Seconds
5) Nb7-d8 Nb7-d8 * 2 Seconds
6) Qc8-c3 Be6xd5
7) Rf5-f8 g6xh7
8) Bb8xd6 Bb8xd6 * 166 Seconds
9) b2-b3 Nd5-f6
10) b6-b7 b6-b7 * 4 Seconds
11) Be2-c4 Be2-h5
12) Bc3-d2 Bc3-d2 * 4 Seconds
13) Kg7-h8 Ba7-d4
14) Ke6-f5 Ke6-f5 * 0 Seconds
15) b4-b5 b4-b5 * 1 Second
16) Rc2-c5 Qh8-h7
17) Kb3-c3 Nd8-c6
18) Bf6-g7 Kh3-h4
19) Qc1-a3 Qc1xc2
20) Ne5-c4 Ne5-f7
21) Rh4-a4 Rh4-a4 * 0 Seconds
22) Nb3-c1 Nf1-e3
23) Be5-b8 Be5-d4
24) .. Qd1-e1 Qd1-e1 * 6 Seconds
25) Rb1-a1 Rb1-d1
26) Ne1-g2 Ne1xd3
27) Qa1-f6 Nc1-b3
28) f3-f4 Ng7-e6
29) Nh4-g6 Nh4-g6 * 65 Seconds
30) Nd3-c5 Nd3-c5 * 46 Seconds
31) Bb4xa5 Bb4-e1
32) d2-d3 g7-g8B
33) Rc1-c7 Rc1-c7 * 25 Seconds
34) Bb1-a2 Nf5-d4
35) Be3xd2 Kh4-g5
36) g7xh8N g7xh8N * 252 Seconds
37) Nd8-e6 Kd6-d5
38) Rg7-h7 Rg7-g3
39) Bb7-c6, c3-c4 Bb7-c6 * 2 Seconds
40) f5xg6 f5xg6 * 16 Seconds
41) e7-e8Q, e7-e8R e7-e8Q * 30 Seconds
42) Qb6-d4 Qb6-e3
43) Ng8-h6 Ng8-h6 * 58 Seconds
44) a5xb6 a5xb6 * 0 Seconds
45) Re3-c3 Nh4-f5
46) Ne7-d5 Re8-f8
47) Rf6-h6 Rf6-f7
48) Qa2-f7 Qa2-e6
49) Be4-d5 Qe3xg5
50) Bg1-a7 Bg1-a7 * 2 Seconds
51) Bg6-f5 Bg6-f5 * 494 Seconds
52) Rf7-h7 Rf7-h7 * 5 Seconds
53) Bd4xg7 Bd4xg7 * 6 Seconds
54) Bb4-d6 Bb4-c5
55) Ne6-c7 Rh7-h8
56) Rh2-h1 h3-h4
57) Re3-e1 Re3-e5
58) f4-f5 Qa5-c5
59) Bg7xe5 Qh1-c6
60) Bh7-b1 a4-a5
61) Bg4-f5 Bg4-e2
62) Rh3-h2 Ba8xb7
63) Rh3xh6 Rh3xh6 * 1 Second
64) Rg2-a2 Rg2-a2 * 31 Seconds
65) Nh8-f7 Nh8-f7 * 21 Seconds
66) .. h6-h5 Ne3-c4
67) c5-c6 c5-c6 * 0 Seconds
68) Ba7-b6 Nc7xa8
69) Rc8-a8 Rc8-a8 * 1 Second
70) Nc8-e7 Nc8-e7 * 80 Seconds
71) Ka2-a3 Ka2-a3 * 0 Seconds
72) a2-a3 a2-a3 * 148 Seconds
73) Nd6-b5 Nb6xc8
74) Kd5-e6 Qd4-f2
75) Ra6-a7 Ra6-a7 * 685 Seconds
76) Ne2-c1 b6-b7
77) Re8-a8 b3-b4
78) Bd2-e3 b3-b4
79) Bd4-h8 Bd4-g7
80) Ke1-d2 Qe6-c6
81) a7-a8N a7-a8Q
82) Be3-d4 Be3-d4 * 104 Seconds
83) Nb7-d6 Nb7-d6 * 12 Seconds
84) Ne5-g4 Ne5xf7
85) Ne4-d6 Ne8-d6
86) Qg6-c6 Qg6-c6 * 33 Seconds
87) Re1-d1 Bg8xd5
88) Bh4-f6 Bh4-g3
89) b2-b3 b2-b3 * 52 Seconds
90) Nc7-a8 Nc7-a8 * 0 Seconds
91) Kf8-g7 Kf8-g7 * 63 Seconds
92) Nf2-g4 Nf2-g4 * 73 Seconds
93) Ne7-g6 Kc8-b7
94) Kf4-e4 Kf4-e4 * 490 Seconds
95) c2-c3 Nh5-f6
96) Ng3-e4 Ng3-e4 * 63 Seconds
97) a3-a4 a3-a4 * 0 Seconds
98) Bg5-f6 Bg5-f6 * 0 Seconds
99) Qf2-f7 Ne4-g5
100) Bg4-e6 Bg4-e6 * 575 Seconds
44 of 100 matching moves
10/30/2019 5:26:45 AM, Total time: 8:01:31 PM Rated time: 12:12:33 = 43953 Seconds
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analysis of G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd
Analyzing engine: Lc0
10/30/2019 5:27:01 AM Level: 720 Seconds
Source : List of EPD/PGN files
G:\chess\epd\ACT2.epd
G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd
Colours : White moves=True, Black moves=True
Direction : forward
Games (PGN) : From 1 to 999999
Moves : From 1 to 250
Positions (EPD) : From 1 to 999999
Use Engine(s) : List
Lc0
Use seconds per move : 720 Seconds per move
Analysis Lines : Minimum search depth=2
Activate abort analysis : False
1) Nc1-b3 Nc1-b3 * 10 Seconds
2) Ra3-a8 Bb8xc7
3) Ne4-c5 Ne4-g5
4) Kd3-c4 Kd3-e3
5) Nd2-f3 Nd2-f3 * 56 Seconds
6) Kd3-e2 Kd3-e2 * 0 Seconds
7) a5-a6 Ra8xb8
8) Nd5-f4 Nd5-e7
9) Rb7-a7 Rb7-a7 * 0 Seconds
10) b5-b6 b5xa6
11) g7xf8N g7xf8N * 0 Seconds
12) Ra4-a8 Ra4-a8 * 134 Seconds
13) b5xc6 b5xc6 * 1 Second
14) h5-h6 h5-h6 * 5 Seconds
15) b5-b6 b5-b6 * 15 Seconds
16) Bg1-d4 Qg5xf6
17) Nb4-c2 Qe2-e5
18) Bd1-f3 Bd1xa4
19) Qg8-d8 Qg8-d8 * 59 Seconds
20) Ng6-h8 Ng6-h8 * 0 Seconds
21) Rd6-d8 Rd6-d8 * 75 Seconds
22) g7-g8Q g7-g8Q * 670 Seconds
23) Qb7-a6 Qb7-a6 * 2 Seconds
24) Rb1-b8 Rb1-b8 * 95 Seconds
25) a7-a8N a7-a8Q
26) Nb4-a6 Nb4-d5
27) Bd6-c5 Bd6-c5 * 0 Seconds
28) Kb8-c8 Kb8-c8 * 272 Seconds
29) Nd3-b4 Nd3-b4 * 5 Seconds
30) Qe3-g1 Bg2-e4
31) Rg6-a6 Rg6-a6 * 21 Seconds
32) Nc3-d5 Nc3-d5 * 0 Seconds
33) Nc1-b3 Nc1-e2
34) Bb2-d4 Rh5xd5
35) Rg7-g6 Qb3xc3
36) Bd7-e8 Bd7-e8 * 2 Seconds
37) Qh3-g4 Qh3-g4 * 169 Seconds
38) f5-f6 Ke4-f4
39) b2-b4 b2-b4 * 6 Seconds
40) Kh2-g2 Kh2-g2 * 78 Seconds
41) Qb5-b2, Qb5-g5 Qb5-g5 * 45 Seconds
42) Ke5-e4 Ke5-e4 * 0 Seconds
43) Bc7-d8 Bc7-d8 * 0 Seconds
44) Nc4-e5 Nc4xb6
45) a3-a4 a3-a4 * 123 Seconds
46) a5-a6 Ba3-e7
47) Na7-c8 Na7-c8 * 5 Seconds
48) Qf2-a2 Qf2-c2
49) Qb8-e5 Qb8xb6
50) Nf4-e6 Nf4-e6 * 5 Seconds
51) Bc8-a6 Ng4xe3
52) Kb5xb6 h5-h6
53) Qh2-h6 Qh2-h6 * 16 Seconds
54) Ke4-d4 Ke4-d4 * 149 Seconds
55) c2-c3 c2-c3 * 255 Seconds
56) a6-a7 a6-a7 * 112 Seconds
57) Bc1-b2 Bc1-b2 * 12 Seconds
58) Nh7-f6 Nh7-g5
59) f6-f7 Bc7xd8
60) a7-a8Q a7-a8Q * 3 Seconds
61) Ng4-f6 Ng4-f6 * 9 Seconds
62) Nb6-d7 Nb6-d7 * 3 Seconds
63) h5-h6 h5-h6 * 0 Seconds
64) Ne4-f2 Ne4xc5
65) Nc8-d6 Ba3-b2
66) Nc4-d6 Nc4-d6 * 1 Second
67) Rg8-h8 g3-g4
68) Ra2-g2 Ra2-g2 * 58 Seconds
69) Bf5-d3 Rh2-h6
70) f2-f4 Rg2-g1
71) Rf5-h5 Nh2-g4
72) Nf3-g5 Nf3-g5 * 9 Seconds
73) Ng8-e7 Ng8-f6
74) c5-c6 c5-c6 * 0 Seconds
75) c6xd7 c6xd7 * 1 Second
76) e5-e6 e5-e6 * 0 Seconds
77) c2-c3 c2-c3 * 32 Seconds
78) Qd2-f2 Qd2-f2 * 0 Seconds
79) Nb2-d3 Ng1-e2
80) h3-h4 h3-h4 * 22 Seconds
81) Qe4-d4 Kb6-a7
82) Rd7-d4 g2-g3
83) Rd2-b2 Rd2-b2 * 16 Seconds
84) Rg8-h8 Bb7-e4
85) Nf8-d7 Nf8-d7 * 0 Seconds
86) Qe3-f4 Qe3-f4 * 3 Seconds
87) Rf8-f1 Rf8-f6
88) Qh5-h6 Qh5-g5
89) b2-b4 b2-b4 * 25 Seconds
90) Qe4-d4 Qe4-e7
91) Bg3-f4 Bg3-f4 * 0 Seconds
92) d5-d6 d5-d6 * 243 Seconds
93) Qe1-g3 Qe1-g3 * 418 Seconds
94) Na3-c2 Na3-c2 * 67 Seconds
95) g5-g6 Nd7xf6
96) Bd7-a4 Bd7-a4 * 4 Seconds
97) Qb1-c1 Qb1-f1
98) b7-b8N b7-b8N * 1 Second
99) Rb6-f6 Rb6-g6
100) Nb4-d5 Kb1xb2
101) c2-c3 c2-c3 * 6 Seconds
102) Ke1-f1 Ke1-f1 * 0 Seconds
103) b5-b6 b5-b6 * 0 Seconds
104) c3xb4 Rh5xd5
105) Rf1-d1 Rf1-b1
106) Be6-h3 Be6-c4
107) b6-b7 b6-b7 * 1 Second
108) Bh7-g8 e2-e4
109) Re2-e1 Re2-e1 * 1 Second
110) Bf2-g3 Bf2-g3 * 0 Seconds
111) Rf2-f3 c2-c3
112) g6-g7 g6xh7
113) Nf1-g3 Nf1-g3 * 0 Seconds
114) f5-f6 Ba4-b3
115) Qh5-h4 Qh5-h6
116) Kc4-c3 Bf3-g4
117) a6-a7 a6-a7 * 28 Seconds
118) Nc5-d3 Nc5-e4
119) Bh6-g7 Bh6-g7 * 18 Seconds
120) Rc7xg7 Rc7xg7 * 0 Seconds
121) Nd6-c4 Nd6-c4 * 50 Seconds
122) Ng5-e4 Ng5-e4 * 21 Seconds
123) Ba3-c1 Ra1-a2
124) Kd8-c7 g4xf5
125) Nd8-c6 Nd8-c6 * 27 Seconds
126) e5-e6 e5-e6 * 1 Second
127) Qd1-d5 Qd1xd7
128) Nh1-f2 Nh1-f2 * 37 Seconds
129) Ka5-a6, Nd1-e3 Ka5-a6 * 0 Seconds
130) Ke4-f3 Ke4-d5
131) Ba3-d6 Ne2xc3
132) Rg7xg4 Rg7xg4 * 0 Seconds
133) Nf5xh4 Nf5-e3
134) Nf7-d8 Nf7-d8 * 27 Seconds
135) Nh5-f4 Qe7-c5
136) Qb4-b7 Rd1-h1
137) d3-d4 d3-d4 * 243 Seconds
138) Ne6-g5 Ne6-g5 * 1 Second
139) Rg2xg3 Rd2-d3
140) Nb7-d6 Ng6xh4
141) Rb6-h6 Rb6-h6 * 0 Seconds
142) Bb2-a3 Bb2-a3 * 2 Seconds
Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:39 pm
by jhellis3
Dann Corbit wrote:Adding points to the existing score is a stupid way to solve it.
This is actually a
very funny statement
.
Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:45 pm
by Zenmastur
Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:00 pm
The fact that contempt makes engines play better in some positions is nothing more than proof that engines are far too passive when the current score is drawn.
Adding points to the existing score is a stupid way to solve it.
I'm not so sure I agree. From iteration to iteration the principal leaf node changes value (generally in a somewhat random fashion around some central value). This creates a kind of an aspiration window for both sides around some central value. The PV may change radically while the PV score changes from iteration to iteration. When the search stops at iteration X you are given a single value score. This number is inadequate to describe the strength of the PV. Because if the score of the principal leaf node changes radically you will have little idea how far the score may drop (or rise) while a "new" PV is being searched for. This uncertainty about what the new score will settle on is a problem. Artificially altering the score of a leaf node can help clarify the "real" strength of the PV. Doing this for both side will bound the value of the PV between two values and increase the confidence level in the given score for the PV.
Or so the theory goes...
This does require more time. So, nothing is for free. The question is: Is the info obtained worth the extra time taken to obtain it?
Regards,
Zenmastur
Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:45 am
by Dann Corbit
2nd file finished
Code: Select all
Analysis of G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd
Analyzing engine: Lc0
10/30/2019 5:27:01 AM Level: 720 Seconds
Source : List of EPD/PGN files
G:\chess\epd\ACT2.epd
G:\chess\epd\ACT1-B.epd
Colours : White moves=True, Black moves=True
Direction : forward
Games (PGN) : From 1 to 999999
Moves : From 1 to 250
Positions (EPD) : From 1 to 999999
Use Engine(s) : List
Lc0
Use seconds per move : 720 Seconds per move
Analysis Lines : Minimum search depth=2
Activate abort analysis : False
1) Nc1-b3 Nc1-b3 * 10 Seconds
2) Ra3-a8 Bb8xc7
3) Ne4-c5 Ne4-g5
4) Kd3-c4 Kd3-e3
5) Nd2-f3 Nd2-f3 * 56 Seconds
6) Kd3-e2 Kd3-e2 * 0 Seconds
7) a5-a6 Ra8xb8
8) Nd5-f4 Nd5-e7
9) Rb7-a7 Rb7-a7 * 0 Seconds
10) b5-b6 b5xa6
11) g7xf8N g7xf8N * 0 Seconds
12) Ra4-a8 Ra4-a8 * 134 Seconds
13) b5xc6 b5xc6 * 1 Second
14) h5-h6 h5-h6 * 5 Seconds
15) b5-b6 b5-b6 * 15 Seconds
16) Bg1-d4 Qg5xf6
17) Nb4-c2 Qe2-e5
18) Bd1-f3 Bd1xa4
19) Qg8-d8 Qg8-d8 * 59 Seconds
20) Ng6-h8 Ng6-h8 * 0 Seconds
21) Rd6-d8 Rd6-d8 * 75 Seconds
22) g7-g8Q g7-g8Q * 670 Seconds
23) Qb7-a6 Qb7-a6 * 2 Seconds
24) Rb1-b8 Rb1-b8 * 95 Seconds
25) a7-a8N a7-a8Q
26) Nb4-a6 Nb4-d5
27) Bd6-c5 Bd6-c5 * 0 Seconds
28) Kb8-c8 Kb8-c8 * 272 Seconds
29) Nd3-b4 Nd3-b4 * 5 Seconds
30) Qe3-g1 Bg2-e4
31) Rg6-a6 Rg6-a6 * 21 Seconds
32) Nc3-d5 Nc3-d5 * 0 Seconds
33) Nc1-b3 Nc1-e2
34) Bb2-d4 Rh5xd5
35) Rg7-g6 Qb3xc3
36) Bd7-e8 Bd7-e8 * 2 Seconds
37) Qh3-g4 Qh3-g4 * 169 Seconds
38) f5-f6 Ke4-f4
39) b2-b4 b2-b4 * 6 Seconds
40) Kh2-g2 Kh2-g2 * 78 Seconds
41) Qb5-b2, Qb5-g5 Qb5-g5 * 45 Seconds
42) Ke5-e4 Ke5-e4 * 0 Seconds
43) Bc7-d8 Bc7-d8 * 0 Seconds
44) Nc4-e5 Nc4xb6
45) a3-a4 a3-a4 * 123 Seconds
46) a5-a6 Ba3-e7
47) Na7-c8 Na7-c8 * 5 Seconds
48) Qf2-a2 Qf2-c2
49) Qb8-e5 Qb8xb6
50) Nf4-e6 Nf4-e6 * 5 Seconds
51) Bc8-a6 Ng4xe3
52) Kb5xb6 h5-h6
53) Qh2-h6 Qh2-h6 * 16 Seconds
54) Ke4-d4 Ke4-d4 * 149 Seconds
55) c2-c3 c2-c3 * 255 Seconds
56) a6-a7 a6-a7 * 112 Seconds
57) Bc1-b2 Bc1-b2 * 12 Seconds
58) Nh7-f6 Nh7-g5
59) f6-f7 Bc7xd8
60) a7-a8Q a7-a8Q * 3 Seconds
61) Ng4-f6 Ng4-f6 * 9 Seconds
62) Nb6-d7 Nb6-d7 * 3 Seconds
63) h5-h6 h5-h6 * 0 Seconds
64) Ne4-f2 Ne4xc5
65) Nc8-d6 Ba3-b2
66) Nc4-d6 Nc4-d6 * 1 Second
67) Rg8-h8 g3-g4
68) Ra2-g2 Ra2-g2 * 58 Seconds
69) Bf5-d3 Rh2-h6
70) f2-f4 Rg2-g1
71) Rf5-h5 Nh2-g4
72) Nf3-g5 Nf3-g5 * 9 Seconds
73) Ng8-e7 Ng8-f6
74) c5-c6 c5-c6 * 0 Seconds
75) c6xd7 c6xd7 * 1 Second
76) e5-e6 e5-e6 * 0 Seconds
77) c2-c3 c2-c3 * 32 Seconds
78) Qd2-f2 Qd2-f2 * 0 Seconds
79) Nb2-d3 Ng1-e2
80) h3-h4 h3-h4 * 22 Seconds
81) Qe4-d4 Kb6-a7
82) Rd7-d4 g2-g3
83) Rd2-b2 Rd2-b2 * 16 Seconds
84) Rg8-h8 Bb7-e4
85) Nf8-d7 Nf8-d7 * 0 Seconds
86) Qe3-f4 Qe3-f4 * 3 Seconds
87) Rf8-f1 Rf8-f6
88) Qh5-h6 Qh5-g5
89) b2-b4 b2-b4 * 25 Seconds
90) Qe4-d4 Qe4-e7
91) Bg3-f4 Bg3-f4 * 0 Seconds
92) d5-d6 d5-d6 * 243 Seconds
93) Qe1-g3 Qe1-g3 * 418 Seconds
94) Na3-c2 Na3-c2 * 67 Seconds
95) g5-g6 Nd7xf6
96) Bd7-a4 Bd7-a4 * 4 Seconds
97) Qb1-c1 Qb1-f1
98) b7-b8N b7-b8N * 1 Second
99) Rb6-f6 Rb6-g6
100) Nb4-d5 Kb1xb2
101) c2-c3 c2-c3 * 6 Seconds
102) Ke1-f1 Ke1-f1 * 0 Seconds
103) b5-b6 b5-b6 * 0 Seconds
104) c3xb4 Rh5xd5
105) Rf1-d1 Rf1-b1
106) Be6-h3 Be6-c4
107) b6-b7 b6-b7 * 1 Second
108) Bh7-g8 e2-e4
109) Re2-e1 Re2-e1 * 1 Second
110) Bf2-g3 Bf2-g3 * 0 Seconds
111) Rf2-f3 c2-c3
112) g6-g7 g6xh7
113) Nf1-g3 Nf1-g3 * 0 Seconds
114) f5-f6 Ba4-b3
115) Qh5-h4 Qh5-h6
116) Kc4-c3 Bf3-g4
117) a6-a7 a6-a7 * 28 Seconds
118) Nc5-d3 Nc5-e4
119) Bh6-g7 Bh6-g7 * 18 Seconds
120) Rc7xg7 Rc7xg7 * 0 Seconds
121) Nd6-c4 Nd6-c4 * 50 Seconds
122) Ng5-e4 Ng5-e4 * 21 Seconds
123) Ba3-c1 Ra1-a2
124) Kd8-c7 g4xf5
125) Nd8-c6 Nd8-c6 * 27 Seconds
126) e5-e6 e5-e6 * 1 Second
127) Qd1-d5 Qd1xd7
128) Nh1-f2 Nh1-f2 * 37 Seconds
129) Ka5-a6, Nd1-e3 Ka5-a6 * 0 Seconds
130) Ke4-f3 Ke4-d5
131) Ba3-d6 Ne2xc3
132) Rg7xg4 Rg7xg4 * 0 Seconds
133) Nf5xh4 Nf5-e3
134) Nf7-d8 Nf7-d8 * 27 Seconds
135) Nh5-f4 Qe7-c5
136) Qb4-b7 Rd1-h1
137) d3-d4 d3-d4 * 243 Seconds
138) Ne6-g5 Ne6-g5 * 1 Second
139) Rg2xg3 Rd2-d3
140) Nb7-d6 Ng6xh4
141) Rb6-h6 Rb6-h6 * 0 Seconds
142) Bb2-a3 Bb2-a3 * 2 Seconds
143) Ka5-b6 Nd5-c7
144) Bg8-h7 Bg8-h7 * 2 Seconds
145) Rd8-d1 Nf1-d2
146) Bh3-f5 Rc7xc8
147) Kc8-d8 Bd5-f7
148) Qb3-d1 Qb3-a3
149) Bb4-a5 a4-a5
150) d6-d7 d6-d7 * 16 Seconds
151) Na2-b4 Na2-b4 * 708 Seconds
152) Rg5xg2 Nh5-f4
153) Bb3-d5 e3-e4
154) Rb7-b4 Rb7-b1
155) Qf7-f2, Qf7-f1 Ne8-f6
156) d6-d7 Ng2xe3
157) b5-b6 Be2-f1
158) Re2-e3 Qc3xa3
159) Kb4-a5 c4-c5
160) Rf2-f1 Rf2-f1 * 580 Seconds
161) Nb3-a5 Rb7-c7
162) Nd4-f3 Rg6xa6
163) Ke6-d7 Bb6xd4
164) Bh6-d2 Rd4-d5
165) Bh5-e2 Bh5-e2 * 34 Seconds
166) Bc1-b2 Bc1-b2 * 146 Seconds
167) Ng2-f4 Ng2-f4 * 532 Seconds
168) Ka7-b7 Ka7-b7 * 58 Seconds
169) b3-b4 b3-b4 * 650 Seconds
170) Nf3-g1 Nf3-g1 * 129 Seconds
171) c2-c4 Rb1-e1
172) b5-b6, d5-d6 b5-b6 * 41 Seconds
173) Bc2-h7 Bc2-h7 * 154 Seconds
174) Ra3xa6 Ra3-a4
175) c2-c3 c2xd3
176) Ra5-a6 Nd5-c3
177) h7-h8Q h7-h8Q * 76 Seconds
178) Nd3-b4 Nd3-b4 * 44 Seconds
179) Ra5-a3 h3-h4
180) Be1-h4 Be1-h4 * 7 Seconds
181) Ng4-e3 Kb6xb7
182) Bh3-d7 Rh2xb2
183) Rg4-g1 Rg4-g5
95 of 183 matching moves
10/31/2019 6:05:42 PM, Total time: 12:38:41 PM Rated time: 19:31:52 = 70312 Seconds
Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:07 am
by Uri Blass
Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:00 pm
The fact that contempt makes engines play better in some positions is nothing more than proof that engines are far too passive when the current score is drawn.
Adding points to the existing score is a stupid way to solve it.
The target of contempt is not to play better but to beat weaker engines.
Contempt should help to prefer equal position that is more complex relative to simple draw and by this way help to beat weaker engines.
Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:32 am
by Dann Corbit
It is a cowardly way to play chess. If I think I face an equal, I try to make a tie, and if I think I face a weakling, I do not respect them.
I think that it is better to go for the win at all times, and maintain respect.
So, for instance, if I do not build a wall but leave holes, then we can both go through, and maybe I will lose to a stronger engine.
But then, I really deserve to lose anyway if it is stronger.
And trying to win is the object of the game.
I do not like the contempt approach in either direction. Going for the tie is cowardly. Trying to win only when you think your opponent is a weakling is cowardly. Are we a bunch of cowards playing chess?! Let's put on helmets to pick petunias and pansies.''
Go for it, and if you lose, you probably deserve to lose anyway.
Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:46 am
by mclane
Uri Blass wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:07 am
Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:00 pm
The fact that contempt makes engines play better in some positions is nothing more than proof that engines are far too passive when the current score is drawn.
Adding points to the existing score is a stupid way to solve it.
The target of contempt is not to play better but to beat weaker engines.
Contempt should help to prefer equal position that is more complex relative to simple draw and by this way help to beat weaker engines.
I would not say they play passive. They have no clue about chess at all.
If there is nothing tactical, they Shuffle the pieces without plan.
Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:23 am
by hgm
Striving for tactically complex positions under the assumption that you will be able to handle theose better than your opponent is indeed a form of contempt. And contempt requires an asymmetric evaluation.
If you are an alpha-beta engine, it is justified to have a modest amount of such contempt, as it will be true more often than not. And you hardly ever would err the wrong way; alpha-beta search is the best algorithm known for tactics. So the worst that can happen against your own kin is that you are about equal, and in that case seeking tactics would hardly hurt. And against MCTS opponents you will benefit from it.
Re: Tactics cannot be very important for chess
Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:35 am
by Ovyron
Uri Blass wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:07 amThe target of contempt is not to play better but to beat weaker engines.
Thanks to Contempt I started to beat stronger opponents in correspondence games.
This turned out to be the other way around as to what Dann says: before Contempt I was playing like a coward, I was playing safe, with a draw in hand, sound moves, positions I was certain I could handle. And my elo and strength were stuck for years with most games ending in draws, even against weaker opponents.
But after I had the bravery to go into complex positions where an engine would like both sides and where finding he best moves was difficult for me and my opponent, then my rating started to rise, I started to win more games, and the curious fact is that I can no longer tell the difference between opponent's strengths.
2400 rated players seem to play like 2100 rated players once you use Contempt, but 2100 rated players seem to play like 2400 rated players. What I mean is that I don't see the difference between their ability to deal with complex positions and they seem to fail to play them properly regardless of their rating.
I still don't know at what point one should stop. Something funny happened in the friendly match against Japan, where I have to play 2 games against the same opponent, one as white and one as black, and this Japanese guy played an opening as white similar to the one I played against him, and I reached on the board the most complex positions I could find.
After the dust settled I came out in a winning position in the game I was white, but on a losing position in the game I was black. If I win one game and lose the other not using Contempt would have given me the same score (2 draws instead of a win and a loss.) I hope I can win one game and save the other, but perhaps the lesson is that you should have Respect for opponents that have the white pieces, and that it's only a concept that works if you're white yourself.