1.g4 opening is losing?

[jp]

We also don't know that the usual self-training, except with TBs, will be bad. It's just about testing things.
How to get enough computing time for the real thing is another question.

[Ovyron]

It won't get wiped out every game, I've seen some draws in self-play. But it's true that some scoring system that reflects how long it lasted could be better.

Not "lasting the longest", but "maximizing the number of potential drawing lines." If a draw line exist it's going to be in one of those with the highest probability and not one that makes it to the latest move without getting mated but always gets mated.

If Zenmastur is right and 1.g4 is lost then this is just a waste of time. What we'd need to find is the weakest way Stockfish can play to beat any defense. What about depth 39? I haven't seen a draw against Depth 39, maybe fastgm can play another game where Depth 60 tries to defend 1.g4 against Depth 39. If this shallow depth is enough to win we know the target is to find a draw against Depth 39, if Depth 60 can defend then 1.g4 still has hope and we can take a look at the potential drawing lines against this shallow depth.

[Ovyron]

(I was annoyed initially about zullil's answer, until I realized centaurs are indeed mythological creatures and that's a nice pun )

[jp]

So you previously believed centaurs are real?

Not "lasting the longest", but "maximizing the number of potential drawing lines." If a draw line exist it's going to be in one of those with the highest probability and not one that makes it to the latest move without getting mated but always gets mated.

Yes. But I don't know how we can score a training game on this measure.

If Zenmastur is right and 1.g4 is lost then this is just a waste of time.

Not if it produces some results. That'd be like saying if we're all right and chess is a draw then any chess programming is just a waste of time.

[Ovyron]

Chess engines assisted by humans are called centaurs, but I didn't specify I was talking about those, so that makes his answer funny.

[Ovyron]

That'd be like saying if we're all right and chess is a draw then anything is just a waste of time.

No, I was saying that the things mentioned were a waste of time, and proposed others that wouldn't if 1.g4 loses.

Also, can you stop making a post and then editing it over and over with new stuff, I just keep missing the new stuff you add because I already read the original.

[Ovyron]

Challenge accepted! I'll create our game soon...

Cool!

Here's our game thread, good luck!

For those of you that do not look at the tournaments sub forum here is the game

[pgn]
[Result "0-1"]

1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 c6 4. Qb3 e6 5. Qxb7 Nd7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. cxd5 exd5 8. d4 Rb8 9. Qa6 Rb6 10. Qd3 Ng6 11. h3 Be6 12. Nf3 Bd6 13. h4 h5 14. b3 Nf6 15. Bg5 O-O 16. e3 Re8 17. Kf1 Bg4 18. Ne1 Bb4 19. Na4 Rb8 20. Nc2 Be7 21. f3 Be6 22. Nc5 Bc8 23. Kf2 Nd7 24. Ne6 Qa5 25. Bxe7 Rxe7 26. b4 Qb6 27. Ng5 Ba6 28. Qa3 Rbe8 29. Bf1 Bxf1 30. Raxf1 Qc7 31. Qd3 a5 32. a3 axb4 33. axb4 Qd6 34. Rfg1 Nb6 35. Qf5 Nf8 36. Re1 Nc4 37. Nh3 Ra7 38. Qxh5 Ra2 39. Re2 Qe7 40. e4 dxe4 41. fxe4 Qd7 42. Ng5 f6 43. Nf3 Nd6 44. Nfe1 Rxe4 45. Qf3 Qe6 46. Rxe4 Nxe4+ 47. Kg1 Rb2 48. Rh2 Rb3 49. Nd3 f5 50. Qf1 Ng3 51. Qd1 Qc4 52. Nce1 Ne4 53. Ne5 Qc3 54. Rg2 Qe3+ 55. Kf1 Ng3+ 56. Rxg3 Qxg3 57. N5d3 Rc3 58. Nf2 Ng6 59. d5 Ne7 0-1[/pgn]

[Dann Corbit]

I am analyzing a few thousand grob positions. It might be helpful to know if there is any path out of the sinkhole.

[Ovyron]

Or at least a "mainline", because we don't even have clear what is 1.g4's critical line (one where it's though for black to find how to make progress.) Mmt's line was very scary at some points, with lines going like a roller coaster, falling from the -2.00s to the -1.60s, and having to be rescued again, so seeing them from the distance, I might have chosen a different black attack with better eval that wasn't best.

But being on the mindset that 1.g4 is lost makes all the difference, as then you know those -1.60s positions will fall down again, so you just keep on attacking them.

I wonder if I could have defended better on the first game by adopting this strategy of the second game and just playing what I predicted white would play (its ponder hit) instead of playing the moves with the most potential drawing lines until there were none (because if black has a winning move for each of them their potentiality is an illusion.)

[Dann Corbit]

I think if there is a draw, it will have an attraction (like a gift pawn) and then a cyclic draw. Or perhaps a very deep tactic. Most likely, the Grob is a loss, but I am not entirely convinced yet.

I had about a million positions, which I whittled down to 10K interesting ones by using SQL queries.
I analyzed the 10K positions to 26 plies and I am now analyzing all of the positions that were 1.5 pawns or less to 36 plies (about 7K, IIRC)