1.g4 opening is losing?

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jp
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by jp » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:26 pm

We also don't know that the usual self-training, except with TBs, will be bad. It's just about testing things.
How to get enough computing time for the real thing is another question.

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Ovyron
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:06 am

mmt wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:38 pm
It won't get wiped out every game, I've seen some draws in self-play. But it's true that some scoring system that reflects how long it lasted could be better.
Not "lasting the longest", but "maximizing the number of potential drawing lines." If a draw line exist it's going to be in one of those with the highest probability and not one that makes it to the latest move without getting mated but always gets mated.

If Zenmastur is right and 1.g4 is lost then this is just a waste of time. What we'd need to find is the weakest way Stockfish can play to beat any defense. What about depth 39? I haven't seen a draw against Depth 39, maybe fastgm can play another game where Depth 60 tries to defend 1.g4 against Depth 39. If this shallow depth is enough to win we know the target is to find a draw against Depth 39, if Depth 60 can defend then 1.g4 still has hope and we can take a look at the potential drawing lines against this shallow depth.

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Ovyron
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:08 am

(I was annoyed initially about zullil's answer, until I realized centaurs are indeed mythological creatures and that's a nice pun :mrgreen: )

jp
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by jp » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:13 am

So you previously believed centaurs are real? :wink:

Ovyron wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:06 am
Not "lasting the longest", but "maximizing the number of potential drawing lines." If a draw line exist it's going to be in one of those with the highest probability and not one that makes it to the latest move without getting mated but always gets mated.
Yes. But I don't know how we can score a training game on this measure.
Ovyron wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:06 am
If Zenmastur is right and 1.g4 is lost then this is just a waste of time.
Not if it produces some results. That'd be like saying if we're all right and chess is a draw then any chess programming is just a waste of time.
Last edited by jp on Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Ovyron
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:15 am

Chess engines assisted by humans are called centaurs, but I didn't specify I was talking about those, so that makes his answer funny.

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Ovyron
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:17 am

jp wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:13 am
That'd be like saying if we're all right and chess is a draw then anything is just a waste of time.
No, I was saying that the things mentioned were a waste of time, and proposed others that wouldn't if 1.g4 loses.

Also, can you stop making a post and then editing it over and over with new stuff, I just keep missing the new stuff you add because I already read the original.

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Ovyron
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:02 am

Ovyron wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:09 am
mmt wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:22 am
Ovyron wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:59 am
Challenge accepted! I'll create our game soon...
Cool!
Here's our game thread, good luck!
For those of you that do not look at the tournaments sub forum here is the game


Dann Corbit
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:27 am

I am analyzing a few thousand grob positions. It might be helpful to know if there is any path out of the sinkhole.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

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Ovyron
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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:07 am

Or at least a "mainline", because we don't even have clear what is 1.g4's critical line (one where it's though for black to find how to make progress.) Mmt's line was very scary at some points, with lines going like a roller coaster, falling from the -2.00s to the -1.60s, and having to be rescued again, so seeing them from the distance, I might have chosen a different black attack with better eval that wasn't best.

But being on the mindset that 1.g4 is lost makes all the difference, as then you know those -1.60s positions will fall down again, so you just keep on attacking them.

I wonder if I could have defended better on the first game by adopting this strategy of the second game and just playing what I predicted white would play (its ponder hit) instead of playing the moves with the most potential drawing lines until there were none (because if black has a winning move for each of them their potentiality is an illusion.)

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Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:13 am

I think if there is a draw, it will have an attraction (like a gift pawn) and then a cyclic draw. Or perhaps a very deep tactic. Most likely, the Grob is a loss, but I am not entirely convinced yet.

I had about a million positions, which I whittled down to 10K interesting ones by using SQL queries.
I analyzed the 10K positions to 26 plies and I am now analyzing all of the positions that were 1.5 pawns or less to 36 plies (about 7K, IIRC)
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

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