1.g4 opening is losing?

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jp
Posts: 1073
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by jp » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:02 am

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:34 am
But it biases them towards the correct answer.
You're supposed to be using the results to help find or confirm the correct answer, not assuming the answer and then biasing the results towards your assumption.

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Ovyron
Posts: 3376
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:12 am

Are you going to argue that it's possible 1.g4 wins for white by force? That's the only scenario where you'd not want to assume otherwise, and no world exists where 1.g4 wins for white by force.

jp
Posts: 1073
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by jp » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:18 am

We would probably all be shocked if 1.g4 is a forced win, though we don't know 100% it isn't.

But that's not the main issue. The source of 1.g4 wins will also generate 1.g4 losses that may otherwise have been drawn. After all, Leela is generating many draws. It works both ways. If you're going to assume those draws should all have been losses (which is possibly true), then there's no point looking at Leela's statistics at all.

OneTrickPony
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:29 pm

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by OneTrickPony » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:13 am

Yeah, suppose 1.g4 is actually a draw, and you play a self-play match and get that 73% of games are indeed won. What you'll find is that in those games white played losing moves that it didn't play in the other 27%, so you create an opening book and forbid the engine to play those losing moves. What statistics do you get now?
Well, you might also find that in those 27% of games black didn't play winning moves available.

zullil
Posts: 5850
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by zullil » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:53 am

zullil wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:36 pm
OneTrickPony wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:25 pm
Newest T60 Leela network gives eval of -73% for after 1 Million node search (a bit over a minute on 2080ti).
If 1.g4 is losing it's interesting to ponder if openings like Benoni or Mar del Plata King's Indian variation are losing as well. If you play around a bit you get around 65% for white in those. Not quite as bad as 1.g4 but in the "maybe theoretically losing" ballpark in my view.
Lc0 (Network 384x30-t40-1573) with 100M nodes has 2. h3 as the top choice following 1. g4 d5. It considers 2. g5 to be second best, though with the smallest probability of losing, at just 56.4%.

Nodes: 100M, N/s: 13.9k, Time: 1h 58m (limit met)

28.4% h3 h5 gxh5 e5 c3 Qh4 d3 Nc6 Nd2 Nf6 Ngf3 Qxh5 e4 Bg4 Rg1 Bxf3 Nxf3 dxe4 dxe4 Nxe4 Rg4 Qf5 Qe2 Nf6 Rg5 Qe6 Nxe5 Nh7 Nxc6 Nxg5 Bxg5 Qxe2+ Bxe2 f6 Bf4 bxc6 Bxc7 Bc5 Bg4 Bb6 Bg3 g6 Kf1 Rd8 a4 Rh7 Bf3 Bc7 Bxc6+ Kf8 Kg2 f5 a5 f4 Bh2 Rd3 Bf3 Re7 Ra4 g5 Rc4 Bxa5 h4 gxh4 Rxf4+ Rf7 Bh5 Rxf4 Bxf4 Bb6 Be2 Rd5 f3 a5 Kh3 Bd8 b3 Be7 c4 Rd8 c5 Rc8 Bh6+ Kf7 Bc4+ Kg6 Be3 Bxc5 Bd2 Bb4 (N: 53.5M, WDL: 137 295 568, P: 24.81%)

27.3% g5 e5 d4 exd4 Nf3 c5 Bg2 Ne7 c3 dxc3 Nxc3 Be6 Ne5 Nd7 Nd3 d4 Ne4 Nd5 O-O Qc7 e3 c4 Nf4 Nxf4 exf4 Qb6 Re1 g6 Bh3 O-O-O Bxe6 fxe6 Bd2 Kb8 Rc1 Qa6 a3 Be7 Bb4 Bxb4 axb4 e5 Nd2 b5 b3 c3 Nf3 Rhe8 Re4 Nf8 Qd3 Ne6 Nxe5 Qb7 Rce1 Qd5 h4 a6 h5 gxh5 Nf7 (N: 28.8M, WDL: 110 326 564, P: 5.08%)

27.2% c4 e5 Bg2 dxc4 Nc3 h5 gxh5 Rxh5 Qa4+ c6 Qxc4 Be6 Qa4 Ne7 Nf3 Nf5 Ne4 Nd7 d3 Nc5 Nxc5 Bxc5 h4 Qb6 e3 O-O-O Ke2 f6 Bd2 Qc7 Ba5 Bb6 Bxb6 Qxb6 Rac1 Kb8 Nd2 Rh6 Bf3 g6 Qa3 Nxh4 Qe7 Bf5 Be4 (N: 9.8M, WDL: 126 292 582, P: 4.76%)

27.0% Bg2 Bxg4 c4 c6 Qb3 e6 Qxb7 Nd7 Nc3 Ne7 cxd5 exd5 d3 a5 d4 Rc8 Bg5 h6 Bh4 Rb8 Bxe7 Rxb7 Bxd8 Kxd8 Nd1 Rb6 Rc1 Bb4+ Kf1 Re8 h4 Nf6 a3 Bd6 Bf3 Bf5 e3 Ne4 Ke1 Kd7 Ne2 Reb8 Rg1 g6 Bg4 Bxg4 Rxg4 Rxb2 Nxb2 Rxb2 Ra1 Nd2 Nc3 Nf3+ Kd1 (N: 5.4M, WDL: 108 324 568, P: 19.98%)

27.0% e3 e5 d4 exd4 exd4 Qe7+ Be3 Qe4 Nf3 Bxg4 Nbd2 Qe6 c4 Nc6 Rg1 Nf6 Qb3 O-O-O c5 h6 O-O-O Ne4 Re1 Bxf3 Nxf3 g5 Bb5 Bg7 h4 Qf5 Qd1 Bf6 hxg5 hxg5 Rg2 g4 Nh2 Nxd4 Bxd4 Rxh2 Rxh2 Qf4+ Kb1 Bxd4 Qxd4 Qxh2 c6 Qxf2 Rxe4 Qf5 cxb7+ (N: 2.3M, WDL: 135 270 595, P: 9.25%)
23.3% e4 e5 h3 h5 Bg2 dxe4 gxh5 Nf6 Nc3 Nc6 Nxe4 Be6 d3 Qd7 Be3 O-O-O a3 Nxh5 Ng5 Nf4 Bxf4 exf4 Qd2 Bd5 Bxd5 Qxd5 (N: 60.1k, WDL: 118 230 652, P: 2.96%)

17.3% d4 Bxg4 c4 e6 cxd5 exd5 Nc3 c6 Qb3 Qb6 f3 Be6 Nh3 Na6 Nf4 Qxb3 axb3 Nb4 Nxe6 fxe6 Kd1 Nf6 Bd2 Kf7 Na4 (N: 20.9k, WDL: 88 170 742, P: 2.55%)

16.8% Bh3 h5 g5 Bxh3 Nxh3 Qd7 Ng1 e5 d4 exd4 Nf3 c5 c3 dxc3 Nxc3 d4 Ne4 Nc6 Qd3 O-O-O Bd2 Qd5 Rc1 (N: 18.6k, WDL: 98 140 762, P: 2.39%)

15.7% d3 Bxg4 c4 dxc4 Qa4+ c6 Qxc4 Nf6 Nc3 Nbd7 Bh3 Bxh3 Nxh3 h6 Ng1 g6 Nf3 Bg7 Rg1 Qb6 (N: 17.7k, WDL: 82 150 768, P: 2.49%)

15.1% c3 Bxg4 Qb3 Nf6 Qxb7 Nbd7 h3 Bh5 Nf3 e5 d4 Bxf3 exf3 Bd6 dxe5 Nxe5 f4 Ned7 Bg2 O-O (N: 16.3k, WDL: 82 137 781, P: 2.43%)
Here's extended information, from the lc0 log file:

Code: Select all

0115 17:54:18.238302 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/stoppers/stoppers.cc:64] Stopped search: Reached visits limit: 100000455>=100000000
0115 17:54:18.241233 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -127 wdl 137 295 568 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 1 pv h2h3 h7h5 g4h5 e7e5 c2c3 d8h4 d2d3 b8c6 b1d2 g8f6 g1f3 h4h5 e2e4 c8g4 h1g1 g4f3 d2f3 d5e4 d3e4 f6e4 g1g4 h5f5 d1e2 e4f6 g4g5 f5e6 f3e5 f6h7 e5c6 h7g5 c1g5 e6e2 f1e2 f7f6 g5f4 b7c6 f4c7 f8c5 e2g4 c5b6 c7g3 g7g6 e1f1 a8d8 a2a4 h8h7 g4f3 b6c7 f3c6 e8f8 f1g2 f6f5 a4a5 f5f4 g3h2 d8d3 c6f3 h7e7 a1a4 g6g5 a4c4 c7a5 h3h4 g5h4 c4f4 e7f7 f3h5 f7f4 h2f4 a5b6 h5e2 d3d5 f2f3 a7a5 g2h3 b6d8 b2b3 d8e7 c3c4 d5d8 c4c5 d8c8 f4h6 f8f7 e2c4 f7g6 h6e3 e7c5 e3d2 c5b4
0115 17:54:18.241291 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -134 wdl 110 326 564 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 2 pv g4g5 e7e5 d2d4 e5d4 g1f3 c7c5 f1g2 g8e7 c2c3 d4c3 b1c3 c8e6 f3e5 b8d7 e5d3 d5d4 c3e4 e7d5 e1g1 d8c7 e2e3 c5c4 d3f4 d5f4 e3f4 c7b6 f1e1 g7g6 g2h3 e8c8 h3e6 f7e6 c1d2 c8b8 a1c1 b6a6 a2a3 f8e7 d2b4 e7b4 a3b4 e6e5 e4d2 b7b5 b2b3 c4c3 d2f3 h8e8 e1e4 d7f8 d1d3 f8e6 f3e5 a6b7 c1e1 b7d5 h2h4 a7a6 h4h5 g6h5 e5f7
0115 17:54:18.241304 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -134 wdl 126 292 582 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 3 pv c2c4 e7e5 f1g2 d5c4 b1c3 h7h5 g4h5 h8h5 d1a4 c7c6 a4c4 c8e6 c4a4 g8e7 g1f3 e7f5 c3e4 b8d7 d2d3 d7c5 e4c5 f8c5 h2h4 d8b6 e2e3 e8c8 e1e2 f7f6 c1d2 b6c7 d2a5 c5b6 a5b6 c7b6 a1c1 c8b8 f3d2 h5h6 g2f3 g7g6 a4a3 f5h4 a3e7 e6f5 f3e4
0115 17:54:18.241313 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -135 wdl 108 324 568 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 4 pv f1g2 c8g4 c2c4 c7c6 d1b3 e7e6 b3b7 b8d7 b1c3 g8e7 c4d5 e6d5 d2d3 a7a5 d3d4 a8c8 c1g5 h7h6 g5h4 c8b8 h4e7 b8b7 e7d8 e8d8 c3d1 b7b6 a1c1 f8b4 e1f1 h8e8 h2h4 d7f6 a2a3 b4d6 g2f3 g4f5 e2e3 f6e4 f1e1 d8d7 g1e2 e8b8 h1g1 g7g6 f3g4 f5g4 g1g4 b6b2 d1b2 b8b2 c1a1 e4d2 e2c3 d2f3 e1d1
0115 17:54:18.241323 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -135 wdl 135 270 595 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 5 pv e2e3 e7e5 d2d4 e5d4 e3d4 d8e7 c1e3 e7e4 g1f3 c8g4 b1d2 e4e6 c2c4 b8c6 h1g1 g8f6 d1b3 e8c8 c4c5 h7h6 e1c1 f6e4 d1e1 g4f3 d2f3 g7g5 f1b5 f8g7 h2h4 e6f5 b3d1 g7f6 h4g5 h6g5 g1g2 g5g4 f3h2 c6d4 e3d4 h8h2 g2h2 f5f4 c1b1 f6d4 d1d4 f4h2 c5c6 h2f2 e1e4 f2f5 c6b7
0115 17:54:18.241331 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -157 wdl 118 230 652 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 6 pv e2e4 e7e5 h2h3 h7h5 f1g2 d5e4 g4h5 g8f6 b1c3 b8c6 c3e4 c8e6 d2d3 d8d7 c1e3 e8c8 a2a3 f6h5 e4g5 h5f4 e3f4 e5f4 d1d2 e6d5 g2d5 d7d5
0115 17:54:18.241339 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -193 wdl 88 170 742 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 7 pv d2d4 c8g4 c2c4 e7e6 c4d5 e6d5 b1c3 c7c6 d1b3 d8b6 f2f3 g4e6 g1h3 b8a6 h3f4 b6b3 a2b3 a6b4 f4e6 f7e6 e1d1 g8f6 c1d2 e8f7 c3a4
0115 17:54:18.241347 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -196 wdl 98 140 762 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 8 pv f1h3 h7h5 g4g5 c8h3 g1h3 d8d7 h3g1 e7e5 d2d4 e5d4 g1f3 c7c5 c2c3 d4c3 b1c3 d5d4 c3e4 b8c6 d1d3 e8c8 c1d2 d7d5 a1c1
0115 17:54:18.241355 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -203 wdl 82 150 768 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 9 pv d2d3 c8g4 c2c4 d5c4 d1a4 c7c6 a4c4 g8f6 b1c3 b8d7 f1h3 g4h3 g1h3 h7h6 h3g1 g7g6 g1f3 f8g7 h1g1 d8b6
0115 17:54:18.241364 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -207 wdl 82 137 781 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 10 pv c2c3 c8g4 d1b3 g8f6 b3b7 b8d7 h2h3 g4h5 g1f3 e7e5 d2d4 h5f3 e2f3 f8d6 d4e5 d7e5 f3f4 e5d7 f1g2 e8g8
0115 17:54:18.241374 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -201 wdl 89 140 771 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 11 pv b1a3 c8g4 c2c4 e7e6 d1b3 g8f6 f1g2 b8d7 c4d5 e6d5 g2d5 f6d5 b3d5 c7c6 d5d4 g4e6 g1f3 e6d5 d4e3 f8e7 h1g1 e8g8
0115 17:54:18.241382 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -212 wdl 78 131 791 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 12 pv g1f3 c8g4 f3e5 g4f5 d2d4 c7c6 c2c4 e7e6 d1b3 d8b6 b1c3 g8f6 c4c5 b6c7 h2h4 b8d7 c1f4 f6g4 e5g6 e6e5 g6e5 g4e5 e1c1 f8e7
0115 17:54:18.241393 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -224 wdl 70 113 817 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 13 pv a2a3 c8g4 c2c4 g8f6 d2d4 e7e6 c4d5 e6d5 b1c3 c7c6 f2f3 g4e6 e2e4 c6c5 c1g5 f8e7 d4c5 e8g8
0115 17:54:18.241402 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -217 wdl 77 118 805 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 14 pv h2h4 c8g4 c2c4 g8f6 d2d4 e7e6 c4d5 e6d5 b1c3 c7c6 f1h3 g4h3 g1h3 b8d7 d1d3 g7g6 c1d2 f8g7 h3f4 h7h5
0115 17:54:18.241411 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -230 wdl 65 105 830 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 15 pv b1c3 c8g4 d2d4 e7e6 c1f4 g8f6 d1d2 c7c5 f2f3 g4h5 c3b5 b8a6 e2e3 f8e7 d4c5 e7c5 e1c1 e8g8 a2a3 a8c8 c1b1 d8b6
0115 17:54:18.241419 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -238 wdl 67 83 850 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 16 pv g1h3 c8g4 c2c4 d5c4 f1g2 b8c6 d1a4 d8d7 h3g5 h7h6 g5e4 e7e5 b1c3 g4e6 b2b3 c4b3
0115 17:54:18.241427 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -234 wdl 68 90 842 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 17 pv f2f3 e7e5 d2d3 d8h4 e1d2 h7h5 b1c3 f8b4 a2a3 b4c3 d2c3 h5g4 b2b3 g4g3 f3f4 e5e4 c3b2 g3h2 d3e4
0115 17:54:18.241436 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -249 wdl 57 80 863 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 18 pv a2a4 c8g4 a4a5 g8f6 c2c4 e7e6 f1g2 c7c6 d1b3 b8a6 b3b7 a6b4 a1a4 a8b8
0115 17:54:18.241444 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -264 wdl 54 61 885 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 19 pv b2b4 c8g4 c2c4 e7e6 d1a4 b8d7 c4d5 e6d5 b1c3 g8f6 f1g2 c7c6 b4b5 d7c5 a4d4
0115 17:54:18.241453 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -272 wdl 44 69 887 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 20 pv b2b3 c8g4 c1b2 g8f6 f1g2 e7e6 d2d3 f8d6 d1d2 e8g8 b1c3 c7c5
0115 17:54:18.241461 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info depth 28 seldepth 94 time 7108462 nodes 100000455 score cp -297 wdl 41 49 910 hashfull 490 nps 13931 tbhits 53 multipv 21 pv f2f4 c8g4 c2c4 e7e6 d1b3 b8c6 b3b7 c6d4 b1c3 a8b8 b7a7 d4c2 e1d1 c2a1 a7a4 d8d7
0115 17:54:18.241587 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string f2f4  (351 ) N:    7175 (+ 0) (P:  1.81%) (Q: -0.86923) (D:  0.049) (U: 0.50653) (Q+U: -0.36270) (V: -0.7212) 
0115 17:54:18.241601 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string b2b3  (230 ) N:    8135 (+ 0) (P:  1.92%) (Q: -0.84284) (D:  0.068) (U: 0.47441) (Q+U: -0.36843) (V: -0.6742) 
0115 17:54:18.241610 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string b2b4  (234 ) N:    8253 (+ 0) (P:  1.89%) (Q: -0.83103) (D:  0.061) (U: 0.46003) (Q+U: -0.37100) (V: -0.6063) 
0115 17:54:18.241618 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string a2a4  (207 ) N:    9921 (+ 0) (P:  2.13%) (Q: -0.80613) (D:  0.080) (U: 0.42974) (Q+U: -0.37640) (V: -0.6802) 
0115 17:54:18.241626 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string f2f3  (346 ) N:   10815 (+ 0) (P:  2.10%) (Q: -0.77338) (D:  0.090) (U: 0.38983) (Q+U: -0.38355) (V: -0.6851) 
0115 17:54:18.241634 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string g1h3  (161 ) N:   10976 (+ 0) (P:  2.20%) (Q: -0.78297) (D:  0.082) (U: 0.40154) (Q+U: -0.38143) (V: -0.7110) 
0115 17:54:18.241643 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string b1c3  (36  ) N:   12513 (+ 0) (P:  2.37%) (Q: -0.76469) (D:  0.105) (U: 0.37925) (Q+U: -0.38544) (V: -0.5933) 
0115 17:54:18.241651 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string h2h4  (403 ) N:   12522 (+ 0) (P:  2.09%) (Q: -0.72752) (D:  0.118) (U: 0.33401) (Q+U: -0.39351) (V: -0.6757) 
0115 17:54:18.241664 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string a2a3  (204 ) N:   13230 (+ 0) (P:  2.37%) (Q: -0.74781) (D:  0.113) (U: 0.35870) (Q+U: -0.38911) (V: -0.5638) 
0115 17:54:18.241672 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string g1f3  (159 ) N:   14757 (+ 0) (P:  2.33%) (Q: -0.71280) (D:  0.132) (U: 0.31609) (Q+U: -0.39671) (V: -0.6863) 
0115 17:54:18.241680 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string b1a3  (34  ) N:   15352 (+ 0) (P:  2.13%) (Q: -0.68147) (D:  0.140) (U: 0.27792) (Q+U: -0.40355) (V: -0.7618) 
0115 17:54:18.241688 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string c2c3  (259 ) N:   16269 (+ 0) (P:  2.43%) (Q: -0.69890) (D:  0.136) (U: 0.29913) (Q+U: -0.39977) (V: -0.6189) 
0115 17:54:18.241696 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string d2d3  (288 ) N:   17656 (+ 0) (P:  2.49%) (Q: -0.68544) (D:  0.150) (U: 0.28274) (Q+U: -0.40270) (V: -0.5886) 
0115 17:54:18.241703 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string f1h3  (138 ) N:   18636 (+ 0) (P:  2.39%) (Q: -0.66412) (D:  0.139) (U: 0.25679) (Q+U: -0.40733) (V: -0.6259) 
0115 17:54:18.241711 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string d2d4  (293 ) N:   20889 (+ 0) (P:  2.55%) (Q: -0.65402) (D:  0.169) (U: 0.24448) (Q+U: -0.40954) (V: -0.6392) 
0115 17:54:18.241718 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string e2e4  (322 ) N:   60078 (+ 0) (P:  2.96%) (Q: -0.53444) (D:  0.230) (U: 0.09884) (Q+U: -0.43560) (V: -0.5662) 
0115 17:54:18.241726 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string e2e3  (317 ) N: 2272781 (+ 0) (P:  9.25%) (Q: -0.46022) (D:  0.269) (U: 0.00816) (Q+U: -0.45206) (V: -0.4336) 
0115 17:54:18.241733 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string f1g2  (132 ) N: 5366422 (+ 0) (P: 19.98%) (Q: -0.46013) (D:  0.323) (U: 0.00747) (Q+U: -0.45266) (V: -0.4554) 
0115 17:54:18.241741 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string c2c4  (264 ) N: 9810493 (+ 0) (P:  4.76%) (Q: -0.45536) (D:  0.292) (U: 0.00097) (Q+U: -0.45439) (V: -0.4976) 
0115 17:54:18.241749 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string g4g5  (861 ) N: 28816421 (+ 0) (P:  5.08%) (Q: -0.45490) (D:  0.326) (U: 0.00035) (Q+U: -0.45455) (V: -0.4789) 
0115 17:54:18.241756 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << info string h2h3  (400 ) N: 53477160 (+84) (P: 24.81%) (Q: -0.43150) (D:  0.295) (U: 0.00093) (Q+U: -0.43057) (V: -0.4695) 
0115 17:54:18.241765 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:296] --- Opponent moves after: h2h3
0115 17:54:18.241888 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] c8g4  (67  ) N:    1378 (+ 0) (P:  1.25%) (Q: -0.81634) (D:  0.015) (U: 1.25048) (Q+U:  0.43414) (V: -0.8280) 
0115 17:54:18.241895 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] c8f5  (65  ) N:    1616 (+ 0) (P:  1.51%) (Q: -0.85363) (D:  0.025) (U: 1.28743) (Q+U:  0.43380) (V: -0.5885) 
0115 17:54:18.241900 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] e8d7  (105 ) N:    1993 (+ 0) (P:  1.25%) (Q: -0.42914) (D:  0.219) (U: 0.86348) (Q+U:  0.43434) (V: -0.2878) 
0115 17:54:18.241905 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] g7g5  (378 ) N:    4300 (+ 0) (P:  1.74%) (Q: -0.12055) (D:  0.327) (U: 0.55515) (Q+U:  0.43460) (V: -0.1177) 
0115 17:54:18.241910 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] g8h6  (161 ) N:    4447 (+ 0) (P:  1.92%) (Q: -0.15843) (D:  0.342) (U: 0.59297) (Q+U:  0.43453) (V: -0.0471) 
0115 17:54:18.241915 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] d8d7  (81  ) N:    5736 (+ 0) (P:  1.65%) (Q:  0.03963) (D:  0.340) (U: 0.39498) (Q+U:  0.43461) (V:  0.0288) 
0115 17:54:18.241920 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] f7f6  (346 ) N:    6105 (+ 0) (P:  1.92%) (Q:  0.00146) (D:  0.337) (U: 0.43316) (Q+U:  0.43461) (V:  0.0481) 
0115 17:54:18.241924 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] b7b5  (234 ) N:    6290 (+ 0) (P:  1.87%) (Q:  0.02472) (D:  0.314) (U: 0.40991) (Q+U:  0.43462) (V: -0.0051) 
0115 17:54:18.241933 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] c8e6  (63  ) N:    6370 (+ 0) (P:  1.84%) (Q:  0.03785) (D:  0.328) (U: 0.39669) (Q+U:  0.43454) (V:  0.0557) 
0115 17:54:18.241938 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] b8a6  (34  ) N:    6707 (+ 0) (P:  1.98%) (Q:  0.02873) (D:  0.359) (U: 0.40586) (Q+U:  0.43460) (V:  0.0515) 
0115 17:54:18.241943 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] b7b6  (230 ) N:    7385 (+ 0) (P:  2.07%) (Q:  0.04888) (D:  0.359) (U: 0.38566) (Q+U:  0.43454) (V:  0.1047) 
0115 17:54:18.241948 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] f7f5  (351 ) N:    8107 (+ 0) (P:  1.83%) (Q:  0.12393) (D:  0.322) (U: 0.31067) (Q+U:  0.43460) (V:  0.2092) 
0115 17:54:18.241953 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] d8d6  (86  ) N:    8230 (+ 0) (P:  2.16%) (Q:  0.07338) (D:  0.327) (U: 0.36124) (Q+U:  0.43462) (V:  0.1140) 
0115 17:54:18.241958 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] c8d7  (57  ) N:    8840 (+ 0) (P:  2.03%) (Q:  0.11931) (D:  0.355) (U: 0.31530) (Q+U:  0.43461) (V:  0.1687) 
0115 17:54:18.241963 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] c7c6  (259 ) N:   10195 (+ 0) (P:  2.39%) (Q:  0.11242) (D:  0.375) (U: 0.32219) (Q+U:  0.43461) (V:  0.1929) 
0115 17:54:18.241968 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] a7a5  (207 ) N:   10303 (+ 0) (P:  2.34%) (Q:  0.12249) (D:  0.346) (U: 0.31209) (Q+U:  0.43458) (V:  0.1272) 
0115 17:54:18.241972 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] b8d7  (33  ) N:   10719 (+ 0) (P:  2.49%) (Q:  0.11486) (D:  0.363) (U: 0.31976) (Q+U:  0.43462) (V:  0.1829) 
0115 17:54:18.241977 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] h7h6  (400 ) N:   11038 (+ 0) (P:  2.49%) (Q:  0.12381) (D:  0.388) (U: 0.31080) (Q+U:  0.43462) (V:  0.1829) 
0115 17:54:18.241982 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] g7g6  (374 ) N:   11331 (+ 0) (P:  2.31%) (Q:  0.15380) (D:  0.366) (U: 0.28082) (Q+U:  0.43462) (V:  0.1443) 
0115 17:54:18.241987 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] a7a6  (204 ) N:   12679 (+ 0) (P:  2.35%) (Q:  0.17942) (D:  0.346) (U: 0.25519) (Q+U:  0.43461) (V:  0.1589) 
0115 17:54:18.241992 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] g8f6  (159 ) N:   14017 (+ 0) (P:  2.25%) (Q:  0.21383) (D:  0.359) (U: 0.22080) (Q+U:  0.43462) (V:  0.2509) 
0115 17:54:18.241997 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] d5d4  (761 ) N:   14949 (+ 0) (P:  2.21%) (Q:  0.23103) (D:  0.329) (U: 0.20359) (Q+U:  0.43462) (V:  0.2280) 
0115 17:54:18.242001 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] c7c5  (264 ) N:   25698 (+ 0) (P:  2.83%) (Q:  0.28314) (D:  0.330) (U: 0.15148) (Q+U:  0.43462) (V:  0.3337) 
0115 17:54:18.242006 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] e7e6  (317 ) N:   26959 (+ 0) (P:  2.85%) (Q:  0.28938) (D:  0.329) (U: 0.14525) (Q+U:  0.43463) (V:  0.2104) 
0115 17:54:18.242011 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] b8c6  (36  ) N:   29003 (+ 0) (P:  2.85%) (Q:  0.29921) (D:  0.317) (U: 0.13541) (Q+U:  0.43462) (V:  0.3668) 
0115 17:54:18.242016 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] e7e5  (322 ) N:   97786 (+ 0) (P:  4.34%) (Q:  0.37351) (D:  0.312) (U: 0.06111) (Q+U:  0.43463) (V:  0.4237) 
0115 17:54:18.242021 139758527309568 ../../src/mcts/search.cc:301] h7h5  (403 ) N: 53124978 (+84) (P: 43.26%) (Q:  0.43351) (D:  0.295) (U: 0.00112) (Q+U:  0.43463) (V:  0.4839) 
0115 17:54:18.242028 139758527309568 ../../src/chess/uciloop.cc:219] << bestmove h2h3 ponder h7h5

zullil
Posts: 5850
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by zullil » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:29 pm

zullil wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:36 pm
OneTrickPony wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:25 pm
Newest T60 Leela network gives eval of -73% for after 1 Million node search (a bit over a minute on 2080ti).
If 1.g4 is losing it's interesting to ponder if openings like Benoni or Mar del Plata King's Indian variation are losing as well. If you play around a bit you get around 65% for white in those. Not quite as bad as 1.g4 but in the "maybe theoretically losing" ballpark in my view.
Lc0 (Network 384x30-t40-1573) with 100M nodes has 2. h3 as the top choice following 1. g4 d5. It considers 2. g5 to be second best, though with the smallest probability of losing, at just 56.4%.

Nodes: 100M, N/s: 13.9k, Time: 1h 58m (limit met)

28.4% h3 h5 gxh5 e5 c3 Qh4 d3 Nc6 Nd2 Nf6 Ngf3 Qxh5 e4 Bg4 Rg1 Bxf3 Nxf3 dxe4 dxe4 Nxe4 Rg4 Qf5 Qe2 Nf6 Rg5 Qe6 Nxe5 Nh7 Nxc6 Nxg5 Bxg5 Qxe2+ Bxe2 f6 Bf4 bxc6 Bxc7 Bc5 Bg4 Bb6 Bg3 g6 Kf1 Rd8 a4 Rh7 Bf3 Bc7 Bxc6+ Kf8 Kg2 f5 a5 f4 Bh2 Rd3 Bf3 Re7 Ra4 g5 Rc4 Bxa5 h4 gxh4 Rxf4+ Rf7 Bh5 Rxf4 Bxf4 Bb6 Be2 Rd5 f3 a5 Kh3 Bd8 b3 Be7 c4 Rd8 c5 Rc8 Bh6+ Kf7 Bc4+ Kg6 Be3 Bxc5 Bd2 Bb4 (N: 53.5M, WDL: 137 295 568, P: 24.81%)

27.3% g5 e5 d4 exd4 Nf3 c5 Bg2 Ne7 c3 dxc3 Nxc3 Be6 Ne5 Nd7 Nd3 d4 Ne4 Nd5 O-O Qc7 e3 c4 Nf4 Nxf4 exf4 Qb6 Re1 g6 Bh3 O-O-O Bxe6 fxe6 Bd2 Kb8 Rc1 Qa6 a3 Be7 Bb4 Bxb4 axb4 e5 Nd2 b5 b3 c3 Nf3 Rhe8 Re4 Nf8 Qd3 Ne6 Nxe5 Qb7 Rce1 Qd5 h4 a6 h5 gxh5 Nf7 (N: 28.8M, WDL: 110 326 564, P: 5.08%)

27.2% c4 e5 Bg2 dxc4 Nc3 h5 gxh5 Rxh5 Qa4+ c6 Qxc4 Be6 Qa4 Ne7 Nf3 Nf5 Ne4 Nd7 d3 Nc5 Nxc5 Bxc5 h4 Qb6 e3 O-O-O Ke2 f6 Bd2 Qc7 Ba5 Bb6 Bxb6 Qxb6 Rac1 Kb8 Nd2 Rh6 Bf3 g6 Qa3 Nxh4 Qe7 Bf5 Be4 (N: 9.8M, WDL: 126 292 582, P: 4.76%)

27.0% Bg2 Bxg4 c4 c6 Qb3 e6 Qxb7 Nd7 Nc3 Ne7 cxd5 exd5 d3 a5 d4 Rc8 Bg5 h6 Bh4 Rb8 Bxe7 Rxb7 Bxd8 Kxd8 Nd1 Rb6 Rc1 Bb4+ Kf1 Re8 h4 Nf6 a3 Bd6 Bf3 Bf5 e3 Ne4 Ke1 Kd7 Ne2 Reb8 Rg1 g6 Bg4 Bxg4 Rxg4 Rxb2 Nxb2 Rxb2 Ra1 Nd2 Nc3 Nf3+ Kd1 (N: 5.4M, WDL: 108 324 568, P: 19.98%)

27.0% e3 e5 d4 exd4 exd4 Qe7+ Be3 Qe4 Nf3 Bxg4 Nbd2 Qe6 c4 Nc6 Rg1 Nf6 Qb3 O-O-O c5 h6 O-O-O Ne4 Re1 Bxf3 Nxf3 g5 Bb5 Bg7 h4 Qf5 Qd1 Bf6 hxg5 hxg5 Rg2 g4 Nh2 Nxd4 Bxd4 Rxh2 Rxh2 Qf4+ Kb1 Bxd4 Qxd4 Qxh2 c6 Qxf2 Rxe4 Qf5 cxb7+ (N: 2.3M, WDL: 135 270 595, P: 9.25%)
23.3% e4 e5 h3 h5 Bg2 dxe4 gxh5 Nf6 Nc3 Nc6 Nxe4 Be6 d3 Qd7 Be3 O-O-O a3 Nxh5 Ng5 Nf4 Bxf4 exf4 Qd2 Bd5 Bxd5 Qxd5 (N: 60.1k, WDL: 118 230 652, P: 2.96%)

17.3% d4 Bxg4 c4 e6 cxd5 exd5 Nc3 c6 Qb3 Qb6 f3 Be6 Nh3 Na6 Nf4 Qxb3 axb3 Nb4 Nxe6 fxe6 Kd1 Nf6 Bd2 Kf7 Na4 (N: 20.9k, WDL: 88 170 742, P: 2.55%)

16.8% Bh3 h5 g5 Bxh3 Nxh3 Qd7 Ng1 e5 d4 exd4 Nf3 c5 c3 dxc3 Nxc3 d4 Ne4 Nc6 Qd3 O-O-O Bd2 Qd5 Rc1 (N: 18.6k, WDL: 98 140 762, P: 2.39%)

15.7% d3 Bxg4 c4 dxc4 Qa4+ c6 Qxc4 Nf6 Nc3 Nbd7 Bh3 Bxh3 Nxh3 h6 Ng1 g6 Nf3 Bg7 Rg1 Qb6 (N: 17.7k, WDL: 82 150 768, P: 2.49%)

15.1% c3 Bxg4 Qb3 Nf6 Qxb7 Nbd7 h3 Bh5 Nf3 e5 d4 Bxf3 exf3 Bd6 dxe5 Nxe5 f4 Ned7 Bg2 O-O (N: 16.3k, WDL: 82 137 781, P: 2.43%)
Extended the earlier search to 186M nodes, at which point Lc0 hit my RAM limit and exited (gracefully!). 2. h3 is this network's clear preference.

Nodes: 186M, N/s: 15.8k, Time: 3h 15m

28.6% h3 h5 gxh5 e5 d3 Nc6 Nf3 Rxh5 Bg2 Nf6 h4 Bg4 c3 Qd7 Nbd2 O-O-O Nf1 Kb8 Bg5 Be7 Qa4 a6 Ng3 Rhh8 O-O-O Be6 Rdf1 Nh5 Kb1 f6 Be3 g6 Rc1 Ng7 c4 Nf5 cxd5 Bxd5 Ne4 Nb4 Qxd7 Bxa2+ Ka1 Rxd7 Bc5 Bxc5 Nxc5 (N: 129M, WDL: 138 297 565, P: 24.81%)

27.2% g5 e5 d4 exd4 Nf3 c5 c3 dxc3 Nxc3 Ne7 Bg2 Be6 O-O Nbc6 Qc2 Qd7 Rd1 Rd8 Bf4 d4 a3 Ng6 Bg3 Be7 b4 O-O bxc5 Bf5 e4 dxe3 Rxd7 Bxc2 Rxb7 Bxc5 Ne1 Rd2 fxe3 Bxe3+ Kh1 Nd8 Rb5 Ne6 Nxc2 Rxc2 Ne4 Nd4 Rb7 Nf5 a4 Ngh4 Bh3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Nf3 Bg2 Ne5 Bh3 Re2 Nc3 Rc2 Ne4 Rd8 Rf1 Bb6 a5 Bxa5 Rxa7 Bc7 Raa1 Rc4 Bg2 g6 Rfc1 Kg7 Rxc4 Nxc4 Rc1 Rd4 Kh2 Bd8 Kh3 (N: 32.8M, WDL: 106 332 562, P: 5.09%)

27.2% c4 e5 Bg2 dxc4 Nc3 h5 gxh5 Rxh5 Qa4+ c6 Qxc4 Be6 Qa4 Ne7 Nf3 Nf5 d3 Nd7 Qc2 Nd4 Nxd4 exd4 Ne4 a5 Bf4 Nc5 O-O a4 Rfd1 Be7 Bf3 Rf5 Bg3 Kf8 Kh1 Kg8 Rg1 Ra5 Rg2 Rb5 Rag1 g6 Bg4 (N: 13.4M, WDL: 126 292 582, P: 4.77%)

26.9% Bg2 Bxg4 c4 c6 Qb3 e6 Qxb7 Nd7 Nc3 Ne7 cxd5 exd5 d3 a5 d4 Rc8 Bg5 h6 Bh4 Rb8 Bxe7 Rxb7 Bxd8 Kxd8 Nd1 Rb6 Nf3 f5 h3 Bh5 O-O Bd6 Rc1 Re8 Rc2 f4 Nc3 Bg6 Rd2 Rb7 Rc1 Nb6 Ne5 Bxe5 dxe5 Rxe5 Rd4 Rf7 a3 Bh5 b4 axb4 axb4 f3 Bxf3 Bxf3 exf3 Rxf3 Rg4 g5 h4 Kd7 hxg5 hxg5 Kg2 (N: 6.8M, WDL: 103 333 564, P: 19.98%)

27.0% e3 e5 d4 exd4 exd4 Qe7+ Be3 Qe4 Nf3 Bxg4 Nbd2 Qe6 Rg1 Nf6 c4 Nc6 Qb3 O-O-O c5 h6 O-O-O Ne4 Re1 Bxf3 Nxf3 g5 Bb5 Bg7 h4 Qf5 Be2 Rde8 Qd3 g4 Nh2 h5 Nxg4 Nb4 Qb3 Nc6 Qd3 Qe6 Nh2 Bh6 Kb1 Bxe3 fxe3 Rhg8 Nf3 Rxg1 Rxg1 (N: 3.7M, WDL: 128 283 589, P: 9.22%)

23.1% e4 e5 h3 h5 Bg2 dxe4 gxh5 Qh4 Nc3 Nf6 d3 Bb4 Bd2 Bxc3 Bxc3 Nc6 dxe4 Nxe4 Qe2 Bf5 Nf3 Qxh5 Bxe5 O-O-O Bf4 (N: 69.9k, WDL: 117 229 654, P: 2.96%)

17.5% d4 Bxg4 c4 e6 cxd5 exd5 Nc3 c6 Qb3 Qb6 f3 Be6 Nh3 Na6 Nf4 Qxb3 axb3 Nb4 Nxe6 fxe6 Kd1 Nf6 Bd2 Kf7 Na4 (N: 27.3k, WDL: 89 171 740, P: 2.55%)

17.1% Bh3 h5 g5 Bxh3 Nxh3 Qd7 Ng1 e5 d4 exd4 Nf3 c5 c3 dxc3 Nxc3 d4 Ne4 Nc6 Qd3 O-O-O Bd2 Qd5 Rc1 (N: 24.7k, WDL: 97 147 756, P: 2.38%)

15.6% d3 Bxg4 c4 dxc4 Qa4+ c6 Qxc4 Nf6 Nc3 Nbd7 Bh3 Bh5 Qh4 e6 Bg2 Be7 Nf3 O-O O-O Bg6 Qg3 (N: 22.8k, WDL: 81 149 770, P: 2.49%)

15.1% c3 Bxg4 Qb3 Nf6 Qxb7 Nbd7 h3 Bh5 Nf3 e5 d4 Bxf3 exf3 Bd6 dxe5 Nxe5 f4 Ned7 Bg2 O-O (N: 21.4k, WDL: 82 138 780, P: 2.42%)

zullil
Posts: 5850
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by zullil » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:34 pm

zullil wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:29 pm
zullil wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:36 pm
OneTrickPony wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:25 pm
Newest T60 Leela network gives eval of -73% for after 1 Million node search (a bit over a minute on 2080ti).
If 1.g4 is losing it's interesting to ponder if openings like Benoni or Mar del Plata King's Indian variation are losing as well. If you play around a bit you get around 65% for white in those. Not quite as bad as 1.g4 but in the "maybe theoretically losing" ballpark in my view.
Lc0 (Network 384x30-t40-1573) with 100M nodes has 2. h3 as the top choice following 1. g4 d5. It considers 2. g5 to be second best, though with the smallest probability of losing, at just 56.4%.

Nodes: 100M, N/s: 13.9k, Time: 1h 58m (limit met)

28.4% h3 h5 gxh5 e5 c3 Qh4 d3 Nc6 Nd2 Nf6 Ngf3 Qxh5 e4 Bg4 Rg1 Bxf3 Nxf3 dxe4 dxe4 Nxe4 Rg4 Qf5 Qe2 Nf6 Rg5 Qe6 Nxe5 Nh7 Nxc6 Nxg5 Bxg5 Qxe2+ Bxe2 f6 Bf4 bxc6 Bxc7 Bc5 Bg4 Bb6 Bg3 g6 Kf1 Rd8 a4 Rh7 Bf3 Bc7 Bxc6+ Kf8 Kg2 f5 a5 f4 Bh2 Rd3 Bf3 Re7 Ra4 g5 Rc4 Bxa5 h4 gxh4 Rxf4+ Rf7 Bh5 Rxf4 Bxf4 Bb6 Be2 Rd5 f3 a5 Kh3 Bd8 b3 Be7 c4 Rd8 c5 Rc8 Bh6+ Kf7 Bc4+ Kg6 Be3 Bxc5 Bd2 Bb4 (N: 53.5M, WDL: 137 295 568, P: 24.81%)

27.3% g5 e5 d4 exd4 Nf3 c5 Bg2 Ne7 c3 dxc3 Nxc3 Be6 Ne5 Nd7 Nd3 d4 Ne4 Nd5 O-O Qc7 e3 c4 Nf4 Nxf4 exf4 Qb6 Re1 g6 Bh3 O-O-O Bxe6 fxe6 Bd2 Kb8 Rc1 Qa6 a3 Be7 Bb4 Bxb4 axb4 e5 Nd2 b5 b3 c3 Nf3 Rhe8 Re4 Nf8 Qd3 Ne6 Nxe5 Qb7 Rce1 Qd5 h4 a6 h5 gxh5 Nf7 (N: 28.8M, WDL: 110 326 564, P: 5.08%)

27.2% c4 e5 Bg2 dxc4 Nc3 h5 gxh5 Rxh5 Qa4+ c6 Qxc4 Be6 Qa4 Ne7 Nf3 Nf5 Ne4 Nd7 d3 Nc5 Nxc5 Bxc5 h4 Qb6 e3 O-O-O Ke2 f6 Bd2 Qc7 Ba5 Bb6 Bxb6 Qxb6 Rac1 Kb8 Nd2 Rh6 Bf3 g6 Qa3 Nxh4 Qe7 Bf5 Be4 (N: 9.8M, WDL: 126 292 582, P: 4.76%)

27.0% Bg2 Bxg4 c4 c6 Qb3 e6 Qxb7 Nd7 Nc3 Ne7 cxd5 exd5 d3 a5 d4 Rc8 Bg5 h6 Bh4 Rb8 Bxe7 Rxb7 Bxd8 Kxd8 Nd1 Rb6 Rc1 Bb4+ Kf1 Re8 h4 Nf6 a3 Bd6 Bf3 Bf5 e3 Ne4 Ke1 Kd7 Ne2 Reb8 Rg1 g6 Bg4 Bxg4 Rxg4 Rxb2 Nxb2 Rxb2 Ra1 Nd2 Nc3 Nf3+ Kd1 (N: 5.4M, WDL: 108 324 568, P: 19.98%)

27.0% e3 e5 d4 exd4 exd4 Qe7+ Be3 Qe4 Nf3 Bxg4 Nbd2 Qe6 c4 Nc6 Rg1 Nf6 Qb3 O-O-O c5 h6 O-O-O Ne4 Re1 Bxf3 Nxf3 g5 Bb5 Bg7 h4 Qf5 Qd1 Bf6 hxg5 hxg5 Rg2 g4 Nh2 Nxd4 Bxd4 Rxh2 Rxh2 Qf4+ Kb1 Bxd4 Qxd4 Qxh2 c6 Qxf2 Rxe4 Qf5 cxb7+ (N: 2.3M, WDL: 135 270 595, P: 9.25%)
23.3% e4 e5 h3 h5 Bg2 dxe4 gxh5 Nf6 Nc3 Nc6 Nxe4 Be6 d3 Qd7 Be3 O-O-O a3 Nxh5 Ng5 Nf4 Bxf4 exf4 Qd2 Bd5 Bxd5 Qxd5 (N: 60.1k, WDL: 118 230 652, P: 2.96%)

17.3% d4 Bxg4 c4 e6 cxd5 exd5 Nc3 c6 Qb3 Qb6 f3 Be6 Nh3 Na6 Nf4 Qxb3 axb3 Nb4 Nxe6 fxe6 Kd1 Nf6 Bd2 Kf7 Na4 (N: 20.9k, WDL: 88 170 742, P: 2.55%)

16.8% Bh3 h5 g5 Bxh3 Nxh3 Qd7 Ng1 e5 d4 exd4 Nf3 c5 c3 dxc3 Nxc3 d4 Ne4 Nc6 Qd3 O-O-O Bd2 Qd5 Rc1 (N: 18.6k, WDL: 98 140 762, P: 2.39%)

15.7% d3 Bxg4 c4 dxc4 Qa4+ c6 Qxc4 Nf6 Nc3 Nbd7 Bh3 Bxh3 Nxh3 h6 Ng1 g6 Nf3 Bg7 Rg1 Qb6 (N: 17.7k, WDL: 82 150 768, P: 2.49%)

15.1% c3 Bxg4 Qb3 Nf6 Qxb7 Nbd7 h3 Bh5 Nf3 e5 d4 Bxf3 exf3 Bd6 dxe5 Nxe5 f4 Ned7 Bg2 O-O (N: 16.3k, WDL: 82 137 781, P: 2.43%)
Extended the earlier search to 186M nodes, at which point Lc0 hit my RAM limit and exited (gracefully!). 2. h3 is this network's clear preference.

Nodes: 186M, N/s: 15.8k, Time: 3h 15m

28.6% h3 h5 gxh5 e5 d3 Nc6 Nf3 Rxh5 Bg2 Nf6 h4 Bg4 c3 Qd7 Nbd2 O-O-O Nf1 Kb8 Bg5 Be7 Qa4 a6 Ng3 Rhh8 O-O-O Be6 Rdf1 Nh5 Kb1 f6 Be3 g6 Rc1 Ng7 c4 Nf5 cxd5 Bxd5 Ne4 Nb4 Qxd7 Bxa2+ Ka1 Rxd7 Bc5 Bxc5 Nxc5 (N: 129M, WDL: 138 297 565, P: 24.81%)

27.2% g5 e5 d4 exd4 Nf3 c5 c3 dxc3 Nxc3 Ne7 Bg2 Be6 O-O Nbc6 Qc2 Qd7 Rd1 Rd8 Bf4 d4 a3 Ng6 Bg3 Be7 b4 O-O bxc5 Bf5 e4 dxe3 Rxd7 Bxc2 Rxb7 Bxc5 Ne1 Rd2 fxe3 Bxe3+ Kh1 Nd8 Rb5 Ne6 Nxc2 Rxc2 Ne4 Nd4 Rb7 Nf5 a4 Ngh4 Bh3 Nxg3+ hxg3 Nf3 Bg2 Ne5 Bh3 Re2 Nc3 Rc2 Ne4 Rd8 Rf1 Bb6 a5 Bxa5 Rxa7 Bc7 Raa1 Rc4 Bg2 g6 Rfc1 Kg7 Rxc4 Nxc4 Rc1 Rd4 Kh2 Bd8 Kh3 (N: 32.8M, WDL: 106 332 562, P: 5.09%)

27.2% c4 e5 Bg2 dxc4 Nc3 h5 gxh5 Rxh5 Qa4+ c6 Qxc4 Be6 Qa4 Ne7 Nf3 Nf5 d3 Nd7 Qc2 Nd4 Nxd4 exd4 Ne4 a5 Bf4 Nc5 O-O a4 Rfd1 Be7 Bf3 Rf5 Bg3 Kf8 Kh1 Kg8 Rg1 Ra5 Rg2 Rb5 Rag1 g6 Bg4 (N: 13.4M, WDL: 126 292 582, P: 4.77%)

26.9% Bg2 Bxg4 c4 c6 Qb3 e6 Qxb7 Nd7 Nc3 Ne7 cxd5 exd5 d3 a5 d4 Rc8 Bg5 h6 Bh4 Rb8 Bxe7 Rxb7 Bxd8 Kxd8 Nd1 Rb6 Nf3 f5 h3 Bh5 O-O Bd6 Rc1 Re8 Rc2 f4 Nc3 Bg6 Rd2 Rb7 Rc1 Nb6 Ne5 Bxe5 dxe5 Rxe5 Rd4 Rf7 a3 Bh5 b4 axb4 axb4 f3 Bxf3 Bxf3 exf3 Rxf3 Rg4 g5 h4 Kd7 hxg5 hxg5 Kg2 (N: 6.8M, WDL: 103 333 564, P: 19.98%)

27.0% e3 e5 d4 exd4 exd4 Qe7+ Be3 Qe4 Nf3 Bxg4 Nbd2 Qe6 Rg1 Nf6 c4 Nc6 Qb3 O-O-O c5 h6 O-O-O Ne4 Re1 Bxf3 Nxf3 g5 Bb5 Bg7 h4 Qf5 Be2 Rde8 Qd3 g4 Nh2 h5 Nxg4 Nb4 Qb3 Nc6 Qd3 Qe6 Nh2 Bh6 Kb1 Bxe3 fxe3 Rhg8 Nf3 Rxg1 Rxg1 (N: 3.7M, WDL: 128 283 589, P: 9.22%)

23.1% e4 e5 h3 h5 Bg2 dxe4 gxh5 Qh4 Nc3 Nf6 d3 Bb4 Bd2 Bxc3 Bxc3 Nc6 dxe4 Nxe4 Qe2 Bf5 Nf3 Qxh5 Bxe5 O-O-O Bf4 (N: 69.9k, WDL: 117 229 654, P: 2.96%)

17.5% d4 Bxg4 c4 e6 cxd5 exd5 Nc3 c6 Qb3 Qb6 f3 Be6 Nh3 Na6 Nf4 Qxb3 axb3 Nb4 Nxe6 fxe6 Kd1 Nf6 Bd2 Kf7 Na4 (N: 27.3k, WDL: 89 171 740, P: 2.55%)

17.1% Bh3 h5 g5 Bxh3 Nxh3 Qd7 Ng1 e5 d4 exd4 Nf3 c5 c3 dxc3 Nxc3 d4 Ne4 Nc6 Qd3 O-O-O Bd2 Qd5 Rc1 (N: 24.7k, WDL: 97 147 756, P: 2.38%)

15.6% d3 Bxg4 c4 dxc4 Qa4+ c6 Qxc4 Nf6 Nc3 Nbd7 Bh3 Bh5 Qh4 e6 Bg2 Be7 Nf3 O-O O-O Bg6 Qg3 (N: 22.8k, WDL: 81 149 770, P: 2.49%)

15.1% c3 Bxg4 Qb3 Nf6 Qxb7 Nbd7 h3 Bh5 Nf3 e5 d4 Bxf3 exf3 Bd6 dxe5 Nxe5 f4 Ned7 Bg2 O-O (N: 21.4k, WDL: 82 138 780, P: 2.42%)
One more run, of the position after 1. g4 d5. Managed almost 300M nodes before the OS killed Lc0 to free memory and avoid a system crash:

info depth 28 seldepth 85 time 22379292 nodes 297264462 score cp -125 wdl 140 295 565 hashfull 1000 nps 13287 tbhits 0 pv h2h3 h7h5 g4h5 e7e5 d2d3 b8c6 a2a3 h8h5 b1c3 h5h8 e2e4 g8e7 e4d5 e7d5 c1d2 c8e6 f1g2 f8e7 g1f3 d8d7 d1e2 f7f6 e1c1 e8c8 h3h4 c8b8 d1g1 a7a6 e2e1 g7g6 d2e3 d5c3 e1c3 e6d5 c1b1 d5f7 f3d2 c6d4 g1e1 d4f5 e3c5 e7c5 c3c5 h8h4 d2e4 d7e6 b2b3 g6g5 c5b4 b7b6 h1h4 f5h4 g2h1

That's probably my node limit, since I have only 128 GB RAM at the moment.

Spliffjiffer
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Spliffjiffer » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:26 pm

in my around 3 hours research Bluefish had the same output until 3...e5 as its best line...not sure anymore whether 4.d3 was considered as best but i dont think so, if i remember well it was 4.Bg2 but i really dont know anymore...the difference in terms of evaluation to 2.g5 was really tiny though...
2.e3 made the biggest steps from worse to good within this 3 hours of search btw...if i remember well at around 2:30 hours 2.e3 was even considered best but that had already turned again when i abborted the search after 3 hours
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 3376
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by Ovyron » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:41 am

So, does anybody feel like trying to defend 1.g4 against my main attack? Looks like I was the only one crazy enough around here to to try to defend it!

mmt
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:33 am
Full name: Jim Fields

Re: 1.g4 opening is losing?

Post by mmt » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:53 am

After over 800 million nodes using Sergio 384x30-t40-1808 net with Kiudee settings LC0 shows after 1. g4:

+1.18 d5 Bg2 Bxg4 c4 c6 Qb3 e6 Qxb7 Nd7 Nc3 Ne7 cxd5 exd5 d4 Rb8 Qa6 Rb6 Qd3 Ng6 h3 Be6 Nf3 h6 h4 Bd6 Bh3 Bxh3 Rxh3 O-O h5 Ne7 b3 c5 Rh1 c4 bxc4 dxc4 Qxc4 Rc6 Qd3 Qc7 Bd2 Bb4 Nd1 Bxd2+ Nxd2 Nd5 Kf1 Nb4 Qg3 Qxg3 fxg3 Nc2 Rb1 Nxd4 Rb4 Ne6 Rhh4 Nf6 Ne3 Re8 Rbc4 Rb6 Nf5 Ng5 Ra4 Re5 Nd4 Rb7 Nc6 Rd5 Rhd4 Rf5+ Kg2 Nxh5 Rdb4 Rxb4 Rxb4 Rf6 Nd4 Rg6 Nf5 Ra6 a4 Nf6 Nb3 Nfe4 Nfd4 Rf6 Nf3 g6 a5 Kg7 Rc4 Rd6 Rc7 a6 Rc4 Re6 Nbd4 Rf6 Nb3 Rf5 Rc6 Rf6 Rc7 h5 Rc4 Re6 Rb4 Rc6 Rb6 Rc3 Nbd4 Nxf3 exf3 Nc5 Rc6 Rc4 f4 Rxd4 (N: 809M, P: 49.85%, V: 0.436)

+0.78 Nc6 d4 d5 h3 h5 g5 e5 dxe5 Nge7 Nf3 Ng6 a3 Be6 Nc3 a6 e3 Ngxe5 Nxe5 Nxe5 f4 Ng6 Qe2 Bc5 b4 Ba7 Bb2 Qe7 O-O-O O-O-O Kb1 Rhe8 b5 a5 Bg2 d4 Qf3 c5 exd4 cxd4 f5 Ne5 Qxb7+ Qxb7 Bxb7+ Kxb7 fxe6 Rxe6 Rhe1 Nc4 Rxe6 fxe6 Ne4 Rf8 a4 e5 Bc1 Ne3 Re1 Rf3 Re2 Kc7 g6 Kd7 Rf2 Rxf2 Nxf2 Ke6 Ne4 Kf5 Nd6+ Kxg6 Bd2 Bb8 Nb7 Nc4 Bxa5 Kf5 Be1 g5 Ka2 h4 Kb3 Ne3 a5 (N: 56.0M, P: 3.37%, V: 0.245)

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