The Busted Dutch

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:49 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:11 am
Note that close to perfection does not mean perfect so one game that you win does not prove it is not close to perfection.
What I was talking about was "close enough to perfection that you can't beat it."

Another way to express the same idea is "how much elo do you add on a take-back?", because analysis of chess positions is nothing more than playing variations until you find a winning line, or taking back the moves and trying another line until one of them is good enough to win.

The fatal flaw of Stockfish at any Depth is that after it's done searching it has to make a decision and make a move and there's no turning back, while one can check if a line is strong to defeat it, and if it isn't, try another one. Every line that makes progress against a given Depth would have a higher elo, so eventually you find a line that does win and that'll have a higher elo that than Stockfish's depth.

Stockfish at Depth 26 is already unbeatable with infinite takebacks, because there's always another line with a better score in a previous position so it'd take back its moves and play it instead and never get mated. Which means we could probably match the elo of Stockfish with X number of take-backs to the elo of Stockfish at some Depth Y, and then it can be proven that Stockfish Depth 70 isn't "close enough to perfection that you can't beat it" because there's some number of take-backs that go over its elo (eventually you can find a path where it plays a losing move, and you're done.)
Your beliefs create your reality, so be careful what you wish for.

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:48 am

Master Om wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:30 pm
Lets play. me black....
Our game ended in a draw.

Thanks for the game! I find it very worrying that I haven't been able to find any promising line against the Dutch, I wonder if it refutes 1.d4!? :shock:

Anyway Om, I've been looking for an opponent to test the Italian...



I claim that in this position black has the advantage! But I haven't had the chance to test the lines at CC time controls. Would you try the white side of this?

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Master Om
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Master Om » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:32 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:48 am
Master Om wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:30 pm
Lets play. me black....
Our game ended in a draw.

Thanks for the game! I find it very worrying that I haven't been able to find any promising line against the Dutch, I wonder if it refutes 1.d4!? :shock:

Anyway Om, I've been looking for an opponent to test the Italian...



I claim that in this position black has the advantage! But I haven't had the chance to test the lines at CC time controls. Would you try the white side of this?
yes. sure. Lets play at the rybka forum or here.
Always Expect the Unexpected

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Master Om
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Master Om » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:33 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:48 am
Master Om wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:30 pm
Lets play. me black....
Our game ended in a draw.

Thanks for the game! I find it very worrying that I haven't been able to find any promising line against the Dutch, I wonder if it refutes 1.d4!? :shock:

Anyway Om, I've been looking for an opponent to test the Italian...



I claim that in this position black has the advantage! But I haven't had the chance to test the lines at CC time controls. Would you try the white side of this?
yes. sure. Lets play at the rybka forum or here.
Always Expect the Unexpected

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:54 pm

Master Om wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:33 pm
Lets play at the rybka forum or here.
I don't think I could handle more than one game at a time on Talkchess so Rybka Forum it is (link to our game)!

Dann Corbit
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Dann Corbit » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:23 pm

These are my analysis records for the recent dutch game. In each position, the field c3 contains the move that was played:

Code: Select all

2rq1rk1/3n2pp/bppbp3/p2pNp2/2PPn3/1P1N2P1/PB2PPBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - acd 49; acs 7620; bm f3; ce 15; pm f3; pv f3 Nef6 Rc1 c5 Nxd7 Qxd7 dxc5 bxc5 Qd2 a4 Rfd1 Qe7 Bxf6 Rxf6 f4 axb3 axb3 Bb7 e3 dxc4 bxc4 Bxg2 Qxg2 Rff8 Qf3 Rfd8 Ra1 Rb8 Ra6 Qf6 Nf2 Bf8 Rxd8 Rxd8 Qc6 Rd6 Qc8 Rxa6 Qxa6 e5 Qxf6 gxf6 Nd3 Kf7 Kf2 e4 Nb2 Ke6 Na4 Bd6 Nc3; 
2rq1rk1/3n2pp/bppbpn2/p2pNp2/2PP4/1P1N2P1/PB2PPBP/R2Q1RK1 b - - acd 53; acs 7620; bm Ne4; c3 "Ne4"; ce -16; pm Ne4; pv Ne4; 
2rq1rk1/3n2pp/bppbpn2/p2pNp2/2PP4/1P1N2P1/P3PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - acd 54; acs 7620; bm Bg5; c3 "Bb2"; ce 20; pm Bg5; pv Bg5; 
2rq1rk1/3n2pp/bpp1pn2/p2pNp2/2PP4/bP1N2P1/P3PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 b - - acd 57; acs 7620; bm Bd6; c3 "Bd6"; ce -10; pm Bd6; pv Bd6 Bg5; 
2rq1rk1/3n2pp/bpp1pn2/p2pNpB1/2PP4/bP1N2P1/P3PPBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - acd 55; acs 7620; bm Qb1; c3 "Bc1"; ce 13; pm Qb1; pv Qb1 Qc7 Bc1 Bd6 Bb2 dxc4 Nxc4 Bxc4 bxc4 c5 dxc5 Nxc5 Qc2 h5 Rab1 h4 Bd4 Nce4 Bxb6 Qxc4 Qxc4 Rxc4 Bxa5 hxg3 hxg3 Ra4 Bb4 Bxb4 Rxb4 Rxa2 Re1 Rfa8 Bf3 g5 Kg2 R2a4 Rb7 R8a7 Rb8+ Kg7 Rh1 R4a5 Bxe4 fxe4 Nb4 Ra1 Nc6 Rxh1 Nxa7 Ra1 Nc6 Ng4 Nd4 Kf6 e3 Rc1; 
r2q1rk1/3n2pp/bpp1pn2/p2pNpB1/2PP4/bP1N2P1/P3PPBP/R2Q1RK1 b - - acd 58; acs 7620; bm Rc8; c3 "Rc8"; ce -23; pm Rc8; pv Rc8 Qb1; 
r2q1rk1/3n2pp/bpp1pn2/p2p1pB1/2PP4/bP1N1NP1/P3PPBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - acd 54; acs 7620; bm Qc2; c3 "Nfe5"; ce 5; pm Qc2; pv Qc2 Rc8; 
r1bq1rk1/3n2pp/1pp1pn2/p2p1pB1/2PP4/bP1N1NP1/P3PPBP/R2Q1RK1 b - - acd 56; acs 7620; bm Ba6; c3 "Ba6"; ce -13; pm Ba6; pv Ba6 Qc2 Rc8 Nfe5 c5 Nxd7 Qxd7 dxc5 dxc4 bxc4 Bxc5 Rfd1 Bd6 Qb2 Qc7 Be3 Ne4 Rdc1 Bxc4 Bxb6 Qb8 Rab1 a4 Bxe4 fxe4 Qd4 Bxd3 exd3 Rxc1+ Rxc1 Be5 Qe3 exd3 Rd1 Re8 Rxd3 Bf6 Rd1 h6 h3 Qe5 Qxe5 Bxe5 Re1 Bd6 Rc1 Kf7 Rc6 Be7 Bc5 e5 Bxe7 Rxe7 Kg2 e4 Rc5 Kf6 Ra5 Kg6 Rxa4 e3 fxe3 Rxe3; 
r1bq1rk1/3n2pp/1pp1pn2/p2p1p2/2PP1B2/bP1N1NP1/P3PPBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - acd 52; acs 7620; bm Bc1; c3 "Bg5"; ce 52; pm Bc1; pv Bc1 Bd6 Bb2 Ba6 Nfe5 Rc8 Rc1 Qe8 e3 Qe7 Qe2 a4 Rfd1 Ne4 Qe1 a3 Ba1 Rfe8 h3 Nef6 Rc2 Red8 Bc3 Bb7 cxd5 cxd5 Rdc1 Ne4 Bd2 Bxe5 Nxe5 Rxc2 Rxc2 Nxe5 dxe5 Nxd2 Qxd2 d4 exd4 Bxg2 Kxg2 Qd7 Qc3 Qxd4 Qxd4 Rxd4 Kf3 Kf7 Rc7+ Kg6 Re7 Rd2 Rxe6+ Kf7 Rxb6 Rxa2; 
r1bq1rk1/p2n2pp/1pp1pn2/3p1p2/2PP1B2/bP1N1NP1/P3PPBP/R2Q1RK1 b - - acd 52; acs 7620; bm Bb7; c3 "a5"; ce -52; pm Bb7; pv Bb7 Bc1; 
r1bq1rk1/p2n2pp/1pp1pn2/3p1p2/3P1B2/bP1N1NP1/P1P1PPBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - acd 51; acs 7620; bm Bc1; c3 "c4"; ce 42; pm Bc1; pv Bc1; 
r1bq1rk1/p2n2pp/1ppbpn2/3p1p2/3P1B2/1P1N1NP1/P1P1PPBP/R2Q1RK1 b - - acd 53; acs 7620; bm Ba3; c3 "Ba3"; ce -48; pm Ba3; pv Ba3 Bc1; 
r1bq1rk1/p2n2pp/1ppbpn2/3p1p2/3P4/1P1N1NP1/P1P1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - acd 53; acs 7620; bm a4; c3 "Bf4"; ce 31; pm a4; pv a4 Qe7; 
rnbq1rk1/p5pp/1ppbpn2/3p1p2/3P4/1P1N1NP1/P1P1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 b - - acd 52; acs 7620; bm Bb7; c3 "Nbd7"; ce -25; pm Bb7; pv Bb7 Bf4 Ne4 Bxd6 Qxd6 Nfe5 c5 dxc5 bxc5 c4 d4 Qc1 Nc6 Nxc6 Qxc6 Qf4 Rac8 e3 g5 Qe5 Rfd8 Rad1 Qd6 exd4 cxd4 f4 Rc7 Qxd6 Rxd6 fxg5 Nxg5 Rf4 Bxg2 Kxg2 Ra6 Nb4 Ra3 Ra1 Ne4 Nc2 Ra6 Nxd4 Rd7 Nf3 Kg7 g4 Kf6 gxf5 exf5 Kf1 Rad6 Re1 Nd2+ Nxd2 Rxd2 Rf2 Rxf2+ Kxf2 Rd2+ Kg3; 
rnbq1rk1/p5pp/1ppbpn2/3p1p2/3P4/1P3NP1/PNP1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - acd 52; acs 7620; bm c4; c3 "Nd3"; ce 42; pm c4; pv c4; 
rnbq1rk1/pp4pp/2pbpn2/3p1p2/3P4/1P3NP1/PNP1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 b - - acd 51; acs 7620; bm b6; c3 "b6"; ce -45; pm b6; pv b6 Nd3 Bb7 c4 Ne4 Nfe5 Nd7 Bb2 Qe7 f3 Nef6 Re1 c5 cxd5 exd5 Rc1 Rac8 e3 Rfe8 Rc2 Rc7 Qd2 Rec8 Rec1 Rd8 Bh3 g6 Bg2 Re8 Re1 Nf8 dxc5 bxc5 Qc3 Qg7 f4 Ne6 Qa5 Qe7 Rec1 Rcc8 Qb5 Ne4 Qa4 Red8 Qa5 Qc7 Qxc7 Bxc7 g4 fxg4 Nxg4 d4; 
rnbq1rk1/pp4pp/2pbpn2/3p1p2/N2P4/1P3NP1/P1P1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - acd 52; acs 7620; bm c4; c3 "Nb2"; ce 31; pm c4; pv c4 b6; 
rnbqk2r/pp4pp/2pbpn2/3p1p2/N2P4/1P3NP1/P1P1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 b kq - acd 54; acs 7620; bm O-O; c3 "O-O"; ce -40; pm O-O; pv O-O c4; 
rnbqk2r/pp4pp/2pbpn2/3p1p2/N2P4/5NP1/PPP1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - acd 50; acs 7620; bm c4; c3 "b3"; ce 40; pm c4; pv c4; 
rnbqkb1r/pp4pp/2p1pn2/3p1p2/N2P4/5NP1/PPP1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 b kq - acd 56; acs 7620; bm Bd6; c3 "Bd6"; ce -32; pm Bd6; pv Bd6; 
rnbqkb1r/pp4pp/2p1pn2/3p1p2/3P4/2N2NP1/PPP1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - acd 55; acs 7620; bm Na4; c3 "Na4"; ce 31; pm Na4; pv Na4 Bd6 c4 O-O b3 Ne4 c5 Be7 Ne5 Nd7 Nxd7 Bxd7 f3 Ng5 Be3 Nf7 Qd2 Re8 Rad1 Bf6 f4 b6 Rb1 Bc8 Rfc1 Ba6 cxb6 axb6 Rxc6 Bb5 Rxb6 Bxa4 bxa4 Rxa4 Qc2 Rc4 Qd1 Nd6 Bf2 Qd7 e3 Ra8 Bf1 Bd8 Rb8 Rc8 Rxc8 Qxc8 a4 Nc4 Qb3 Qa6 Rc1 Qxa4 Bxc4 dxc4 Qxc4 Qxc4 Rxc4 Ra2 Be1; 
rnbqkb1r/ppp3pp/4pn2/3p1p2/3P4/2N2NP1/PPP1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 b kq - acd 50; acs 7620; bm c6; c3 "c6"; cce -72; ce -32; pm Be7 {15} Nc6 {8} Bd6 {2} Bb4 {1} Bd7 {1}; pv c6; 
rnbqkb1r/ppp3pp/4pn2/3p1p2/3P4/2N2NP1/PPP1PPBP/R1BQK2R w KQkq - acd 48; acs 7620; bm O-O; c3 "O-O"; cce 90; ce 19; pm O-O {28}; pv O-O c6 a4 a5 b3 Bd6 e3 O-O Bb2 Qc7 Rc1 Qe7 Ne5 Nbd7 Nb1 Ne4 f3 Ng5 f4 Ne4 Nd2 Ndf6 Nxe4 Nxe4 c4 Rd8 Qe2 Bd7 Rc2 Be8 Rfc1 Bf7 Nd3 Bg6 Rf1 Rac8 Bf3 Bc7 Ra1 Bd6 c5 Bc7 Qg2 h6 Ba3 Ra8 Qh3 Kh7 b4 axb4 Bxb4 Bf7 a5; 
rnbqkb1r/ppp1p1pp/5n2/3p1p2/3P4/2N2NP1/PPP1PPBP/R1BQK2R b KQkq - acd 53; acs 7620; bm e6; c3 "e6"; cce -67; ce -33; pm e6 {26} Nc6 {2} g6 {1}; pv e6 O-O; 
rnbqkb1r/ppp1p1pp/5n2/3p1p2/3P4/2N3P1/PPP1PPBP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - acd 53; acs 7620; bm Nf3; c3 "Nf3"; cce 59; ce 33; pm Bg5 {134} Nf3 {26} Nh3 {5} Bf4 {2}; pv Nf3 e6 O-O c6 b3 Bd6 Na4 b6 c4 O-O c5 bxc5 Nxc5 Bxc5 dxc5 Re8 Bb2 Nbd7 Nd4 Qc7 Qc2 a5 Rac1 Ba6 Qc3 Re7 Qd2 Nf8 f3 Ree8 Bc3 Bc8 Qc2 Qd7 Bh3 Ng6 Rfe1 Qc7 e3 Ne5 Bb2 Ba6 Rcd1 a4 Bg2 Rab8 e4 axb3 axb3 fxe4 fxe4 Qf7 Nxe6 Nd3 exd5 Nxe1 Rxe1 Nxd5; 
rnbqkb1r/ppp1p1pp/3p1n2/5p2/3P4/2N3P1/PPP1PPBP/R1BQK1NR b KQkq - acd 54; acs 7620; bm d5; c3 "d5"; cce -52; ce -25; pm d5 {169} g6 {7} c6 {4} e5 {3} e6 {2} Nbd7 {2} Nc6 {2}; pv d5; 
rnbqkb1r/ppp1p1pp/3p1n2/5p2/3P4/6P1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQK1NR w KQkq - acd 48; acs 7620; bm b3; c3 "Nc3"; cce 80; ce 47; pm Nf3 {402} Nc3 {179} c4 {70} Nh3 {34} d5 {30} c3 {15} b3 {10} Bg5 {3} Nd2 {2} e3 {1}; pv b3 g6 c4 Bg7 Bb2 O-O Nh3 c6 O-O a5 Qc2 Na6 Rd1 Bd7 Nc3 Rb8 d5 h6 e3 Nc5 Rac1 cxd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 Bxd5+ Kh7 Bxg7 Kxg7 Nf4 Kh7 Nd3 Qc7 Nxc5 dxc5 Rd2 b6 Bg2 Bc6 Rcd1 Rbc8 Qc3 Rf6 Bxc6 Rxc6 f4 Rd6 Rxd6 exd6; 
rnbqkb1r/ppppp1pp/5n2/5p2/3P4/6P1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQK1NR b KQkq - acd 49; acs 7620; bm g6; c3 "d6"; cce -94; ce -52; pm g6 {3288} e6 {1385} d6 {315} d5 {93} c6 {36} c5 {6} Nc6 {2} g5 {1}; pv g6 b3; 
rnbqkb1r/ppppp1pp/5n2/5p2/3P4/6P1/PPP1PP1P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - acd 49; acs 7620; bm Bg2; c3 "Bg2"; cce 57; ce 24; pm Bg2 {6872} Nf3 {141} c4 {109} Nh3 {10} b3 {4} Nc3 {3} Bg5 {1}; pv Bg2 g6; 
rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/5p2/3P4/6P1/PPP1PP1P/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - acd 52; acs 7620; bm d6; c3 "Nf6"; cce -99; ce -53; pm Nf6 {5076} g6 {237} e6 {161} d6 {48} d5 {15} c5 {4} c6 {4} b6 {1} g5 {1}; pv d6 Bg2; 
rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/5p2/3P4/8/PPP1PPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - acd 48; acs 13800; bm g3; c3 "g3"; cce 36; ce 56; id "C.A.P. 445860"; pm g3 {6055} c4 {2724} Nf3 {2205} Nc3 {1507} Bg5 {1359} e4 {752} Bf4 {211} h3 {90} g4 {78} Qd3 {69} e3 {32} f4 {30} b3 {14} c3 {14} Nh3 {9} f3 {5} h4 {5} d5 {4} Nd2 {3}; pv g3; 
rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3P4/8/PPP1PPPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - acd 60; acs 680667; bm c5; c2 "lichess.org"; c3 "f5"; c4 "d5"; cce -81; ce -8; pm Nf6 {47347} d5 {21935} e6 {3541} f5 {3015} g6 {1822} d6 {1810} c5 {924} c6 {361} Nc6 {224} b6 {121} e5 {77} b5 {68} a6 {29} h6 {13} Na6 {7} f6 {5} a5 {4} h5 {2} Bd6 {1} g5 {1}; pv c5 Nf3 Nf6 g3 d5 d4 dxc4 Qa4 Nc6 dxc5 e6 Bg2 Bxc5 Nc3 Qa5 Qxc4 O-O O-O Bd7 Ne4 Be7 Bd2 Qf5 Nxf6 Bxf6; 
rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - acd 70; acs 1589745; bm c4; c3 "d4"; c4 "e4"; cce 36; ce 8; pm e4 {52066} d4 {33208} Nf3 {7591} c4 {6627} f4 {613} b3 {514} g3 {488} Nc3 {442} b4 {335} e3 {74} g4 {58} a3 {49} d3 {47} c3 {39} h3 {24} f3 {6} h4 {5} a4 {3} Nh3 {1}; pv c4 c5 Nf3 Nf6 g3 d5 d4 dxc4 Qa4 Nc6 dxc5 e6 Bg2 Bxc5 Nc3 Qa5 Qxc4 O-O O-O Bd7 Ne4 Be7 Bd2 Qf5 Nxf6 Bxf6 Bc3 e5 Nd2 Rac8 Qb3 Rc7 Bd5 b5 a3 a6 Rac1 Be7 e3 Rfc8 f4 Be6 Bxe6 Qxe6 Qxe6 fxe6 Ne4 a5 Bxe5 Nxe5 Rxc7 Rxc7 fxe5 Rc4 Rf4 Bc5 Nxc5 Rxc5 Kf1 Rc1 Kg2 Rc5 b4 axb4 axb4 Rc2 Rf2 Rc3 Kf3 Rc4 Rd2 Rxb4 Rd7 g5 g4 Rb2 Rb7 Rxh2 Rxb5; 
These are the records where the move played differs from what I have in the analysis (ignoring the early moves like playing the dutch in the first place):

Code: Select all

2rq1rk1/3n2pp/bppbpn2/p2pNp2/2PP4/1P1N2P1/P3PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - acd 54; acs 7620; bm Bg5; c3 "Bb2"; ce 20; pm Bg5; pv Bg5; 
2rq1rk1/3n2pp/bpp1pn2/p2pNpB1/2PP4/bP1N2P1/P3PPBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - acd 55; acs 7620; bm Qb1; c3 "Bc1"; ce 13; pm Qb1; pv Qb1 Qc7 Bc1 Bd6 Bb2 dxc4 Nxc4 Bxc4 bxc4 c5 dxc5 Nxc5 Qc2 h5 Rab1 h4 Bd4 Nce4 Bxb6 Qxc4 Qxc4 Rxc4 Bxa5 hxg3 hxg3 Ra4 Bb4 Bxb4 Rxb4 Rxa2 Re1 Rfa8 Bf3 g5 Kg2 R2a4 Rb7 R8a7 Rb8+ Kg7 Rh1 R4a5 Bxe4 fxe4 Nb4 Ra1 Nc6 Rxh1 Nxa7 Ra1 Nc6 Ng4 Nd4 Kf6 e3 Rc1; 
r2q1rk1/3n2pp/bpp1pn2/p2p1pB1/2PP4/bP1N1NP1/P3PPBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - acd 54; acs 7620; bm Qc2; c3 "Nfe5"; ce 5; pm Qc2; pv Qc2 Rc8; 
r1bq1rk1/3n2pp/1pp1pn2/p2p1p2/2PP1B2/bP1N1NP1/P3PPBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - acd 52; acs 7620; bm Bc1; c3 "Bg5"; ce 52; pm Bc1; pv Bc1 Bd6 Bb2 Ba6 Nfe5 Rc8 Rc1 Qe8 e3 Qe7 Qe2 a4 Rfd1 Ne4 Qe1 a3 Ba1 Rfe8 h3 Nef6 Rc2 Red8 Bc3 Bb7 cxd5 cxd5 Rdc1 Ne4 Bd2 Bxe5 Nxe5 Rxc2 Rxc2 Nxe5 dxe5 Nxd2 Qxd2 d4 exd4 Bxg2 Kxg2 Qd7 Qc3 Qxd4 Qxd4 Rxd4 Kf3 Kf7 Rc7+ Kg6 Re7 Rd2 Rxe6+ Kf7 Rxb6 Rxa2; 
r1bq1rk1/p2n2pp/1pp1pn2/3p1p2/2PP1B2/bP1N1NP1/P3PPBP/R2Q1RK1 b - - acd 52; acs 7620; bm Bb7; c3 "a5"; ce -52; pm Bb7; pv Bb7 Bc1; 
r1bq1rk1/p2n2pp/1pp1pn2/3p1p2/3P1B2/bP1N1NP1/P1P1PPBP/R2Q1RK1 w - - acd 51; acs 7620; bm Bc1; c3 "c4"; ce 42; pm Bc1; pv Bc1; 
r1bq1rk1/p2n2pp/1ppbpn2/3p1p2/3P4/1P1N1NP1/P1P1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - acd 53; acs 7620; bm a4; c3 "Bf4"; ce 31; pm a4; pv a4 Qe7; 
rnbq1rk1/p5pp/1ppbpn2/3p1p2/3P4/1P1N1NP1/P1P1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 b - - acd 52; acs 7620; bm Bb7; c3 "Nbd7"; ce -25; pm Bb7; pv Bb7 Bf4 Ne4 Bxd6 Qxd6 Nfe5 c5 dxc5 bxc5 c4 d4 Qc1 Nc6 Nxc6 Qxc6 Qf4 Rac8 e3 g5 Qe5 Rfd8 Rad1 Qd6 exd4 cxd4 f4 Rc7 Qxd6 Rxd6 fxg5 Nxg5 Rf4 Bxg2 Kxg2 Ra6 Nb4 Ra3 Ra1 Ne4 Nc2 Ra6 Nxd4 Rd7 Nf3 Kg7 g4 Kf6 gxf5 exf5 Kf1 Rad6 Re1 Nd2+ Nxd2 Rxd2 Rf2 Rxf2+ Kxf2 Rd2+ Kg3; 
rnbq1rk1/p5pp/1ppbpn2/3p1p2/3P4/1P3NP1/PNP1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - acd 52; acs 7620; bm c4; c3 "Nd3"; ce 42; pm c4; pv c4; 
rnbq1rk1/pp4pp/2pbpn2/3p1p2/N2P4/1P3NP1/P1P1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - acd 52; acs 7620; bm c4; c3 "Nb2"; ce 31; pm c4; pv c4 b6; 
rnbqk2r/pp4pp/2pbpn2/3p1p2/N2P4/5NP1/PPP1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - acd 50; acs 7620; bm c4; c3 "b3"; ce 40; pm c4; pv c4; 
In particular, I would be keen to know what a long analysis using several top engines might have to say on this position:
acd 52; acs 7620; bm Bc1; c3 "Bg5"; ce 52; pm Bc1; pv Bc1 Bd6 Bb2 Ba6 Nfe5 Rc8 Rc1 Qe8 e3 Qe7 Qe2 a4 Rfd1 Ne4 Qe1 a3 Ba1 Rfe8 h3 Nef6 Rc2 Red8 Bc3 Bb7 cxd5 cxd5 Rdc1 Ne4 Bd2 Bxe5 Nxe5 Rxc2 Rxc2 Nxe5 dxe5 Nxd2 Qxd2 d4 exd4 Bxg2 Kxg2 Qd7 Qc3 Qxd4 Qxd4 Rxd4 Kf3 Kf7 Rc7+ Kg6 Re7 Rd2 Rxe6+ Kf7 Rxb6 Rxa2;
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Damir
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Full name: Damir Desevac

Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Damir » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:47 pm

I have bought book called Dismantling the Dutch Defense with the Dangerfield Attack. In it the main move for White is 2.Bf4 after 1.d4 is played All variations give advantage for White....

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Ovyron
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Re: The Busted Dutch

Post by Ovyron » Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:50 am

Thanks Dann.
Dann Corbit wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:23 pm
In particular, I would be keen to know what a long analysis using several top engines might have to say on this position:
acd 52; acs 7620; bm Bc1; c3 "Bg5"; ce 52; pm Bc1; pv Bc1 Bd6 Bb2 Ba6 Nfe5 Rc8 Rc1 Qe8 e3 Qe7 Qe2 a4 Rfd1 Ne4 Qe1 a3 Ba1 Rfe8 h3 Nef6 Rc2 Red8 Bc3 Bb7 cxd5 cxd5 Rdc1 Ne4 Bd2 Bxe5 Nxe5 Rxc2 Rxc2 Nxe5 dxe5 Nxd2 Qxd2 d4 exd4 Bxg2 Kxg2 Qd7 Qc3 Qxd4 Qxd4 Rxd4 Kf3 Kf7 Rc7+ Kg6 Re7 Rd2 Rxe6+ Kf7 Rxb6 Rxa2;
Heh, it was one of those positions that I left analyzing for a long time by mistake.

This was up to depth 44 after excluding Bc1 from analysis:

44/63 154:35 +0.82 13.Bg5 Bb7 14.Nfe5 Qe8 15.Bc1 Bd6 16.Bb2 c5 17.e3 Ne4 18.cxd5 exd5 19.Rc1 Rc8 20.f3 Ng5 21.h4 Ne6 22.Nxd7 Qxd7 23.f4 Qe7 24.Qd2 Rfd8 25.Rfd1 c4 26.Ne5 (20.775.156.609) 2239 TB:237

I think 0.82 is ridiculous and that the position should have a score much closer to 0.00. Also, I don't think this g3+Bg2 is any good against the Dutch, but where to put the light square Bishop is a question white has yet to answer.

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