when is a win a win and a draw a draw

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vb4
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when is a win a win and a draw a draw

Post by vb4 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am

Hi everyone I have a question regarding the subject here. I was playing a bullet game and I had only a king and a knight and my opponent had 3 pawns a rook. My opponent ran out of time but I was told that since I only had a knight that I could not win the game so the server said it was a draw?? There are many positions with those pieces that I can show could actually be a win for black even though it is not likely admittedly. My understanding is the only time this could be a draw is if I had a king and either a night or bishop and my opponent had just a king. In this case it is 100% a draw since I have no chance of a mate in any way. However with the position here it is possible but not likely that if my opponent made the wrong moves he could get caught. My thought was as long as there is ANY chance of a win the server can not assume that just because I have just a knight that its a clear draw. Just because I have a single knight but because there are a lot of pieces that my opponent has the server should not ASSUME the outcome with those pieces on the board. I clearly understand that if I have just a knight left or a bishop and the opponent has just a king it is obvious if his flag on his clock falls before mine then and only then are we both awarded a draw.

Here is the position but keep in mind that there are many with these pieces that black can win,

[d]8/1K6/1P2R3/3k4/2P5/P1n5/8/8 w - -

I hope a explained everything clearly.

Your thoughts would be deeply appreciated.

Thanks Les

bob
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Re: when is a win a win and a draw a draw

Post by bob » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:41 am

This is a sticky wicket in the FIDE rules. Technically even a KB vs KB is winnable by FIDE rules since black could put his king on H8, his bishop on H7, white could have his king on F8 and moves his bishop to the a1-h8 diagonal. Nobody would play that bishop to h7 of course, but the rules...

Chess servers such as ICC have always taken the more player-friendly approach that says if the game is draw because neither side can force mate against reasonable by both sides, the game is a draw. If one side has only a minor, he can't win so even if his opponent runs out of time, the best he can get is a draw. In a KR vs KB, neither side can force mate, but since the KR side can win if black makes a mistake that loses the bishop, white wins if black's flag falls, but the game is a draw if white's flag falls. This prevents agonizingly long games with no real hope of winning except by the clock.

In your example, black can't win by force, so black can't win on time. White can easily with by force, and so will also win on time... Note your position is actually illegal since it is white to move and that white C pawn is attacking the black king. If you move that C pawn forward one rank to make the position legal, white wins. If you just change side to move, white wins. If black's flag falls, white wins.

Spliffjiffer
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Re: when is a win a win and a draw a draw

Post by Spliffjiffer » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:58 am

in my opinion you clearly won the game (mate-positions possible) !
if this is a fide-rule then its highest time to change this !!
an absolute nogo imho

regards
Wahrheiten sind Illusionen von denen wir aber vergessen haben dass sie welche sind.

Uri Blass
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Re: when is a win a win and a draw a draw

Post by Uri Blass » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:25 am

There are positions when you only have a knight and you cannot win.
For example KN vs KQ when there is nothing the side with the queen can do to help the opponent to win.

If the stronger side who lost on time has a rook or a bishop or a knight or a pawn and lose on time it is not a draw by the fide rules.

For a knight there are KNKP endgames when the side with the knight can force mate


Uri Blass
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Re: when is a win a win and a draw a draw

Post by Uri Blass » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:41 am

Note that I do not know about a single engine that can detect when a draw is a draw(that means no possible mate for the opponent)

stupid Stockfish even cannot evaluate obvious draw chess positions by the chess rules as 0.00 and I do not believe there is a chess server that is going to give you a draw if you lose on time in one of the following positions






An intelligent engine should simply claim a draw and refuse to play here

The first position is a draw also if white has a rook instead of a bishop but in that case both sides can blunder so claiming a draw is wrong.

vb4
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Location: NY

Re: when is a win a win and a draw a draw

Post by vb4 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:28 am

Bob you are right the position is illegal my mistake. The point was unless a position is 100% certain that its a draw then just because black only has a knight doesn't foot the bill. To me only 2 kings and a bishop or 2 kings and a knight I think are the only 2 scenarios guaranteed a draw. Uri only these 2 cases I believe can the server know for sure its a draw. One more diagram of another case.

[d]K2k4/P7/4n3/8/RP1P4/8/8/8 b - -

Now if black king goes to c8 what can white do to prevent black knight to c7 mate? This is what I am having problems with.

vb4
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Re: when is a win a win and a draw a draw

Post by vb4 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:31 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:25 am
There are positions when you only have a knight and you cannot win.
For example KN vs KQ when there is nothing the side with the queen can do to help the opponent to win.

If the stronger side who lost on time has a rook or a bishop or a knight or a pawn and lose on time it is not a draw by the fide rules.

For a knight there are KNKP endgames when the side with the knight can force mate

Thanks Uri that's my point


vb4
Posts: 154
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Location: NY

Re: when is a win a win and a draw a draw

Post by vb4 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:33 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:41 am
Note that I do not know about a single engine that can detect when a draw is a draw(that means no possible mate for the opponent)

"Unless there are only 2 kings and a knight or a bishop outside of that no server is going to ALWAYS get it right"

stupid Stockfish even cannot evaluate obvious draw chess positions by the chess rules as 0.00 and I do not believe there is a chess server that is going to give you a draw if you lose on time in one of the following positions






An intelligent engine should simply claim a draw and refuse to play here

The first position is a draw also if white has a rook instead of a bishop but in that case both sides can blunder so claiming a draw is wrong.

Nay Lin Tun
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Re: when is a win a win and a draw a draw

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:58 am

vb4 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:47 am
Hi everyone I have a question regarding the subject here. I was playing a bullet game and I had only a king and a knight and my opponent had 3 pawns a rook. My opponent ran out of time but I was told that since I only had a knight that I could not win the game so the server said it was a draw?? There are many positions with those pieces that I can show could actually be a win for black even though it is not likely admittedly. My understanding is the only time this could be a draw is if I had a king and either a night or bishop and my opponent had just a king. In this case it is 100% a draw since I have no chance of a mate in any way. However with the position here it is possible but not likely that if my opponent made the wrong moves he could get caught. My thought was as long as there is ANY chance of a win the server can not assume that just because I have just a knight that its a clear draw. Just because I have a single knight but because there are a lot of pieces that my opponent has the server should not ASSUME the outcome with those pieces on the board. I clearly understand that if I have just a knight left or a bishop and the opponent has just a king it is obvious if his flag on his clock falls before mine then and only then are we both awarded a draw.

Here is the position but keep in mind that there are many with these pieces that black can win,

[d]8/1K6/1P2R3/3k4/2P5/P1n5/8/8 w - -

I hope a explained everything clearly.

Your thoughts would be deeply appreciated.

Thanks Les
Depends on online website rules.
1. It is a draw in chess.com
2. It is a win in lichess.

Remember, online chess is not related to Fide rules. Websites have their own rules.
For example, premove is not available in FIDE, auto promotion is not available in Fide.

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Ovyron
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Re: when is a win a win and a draw a draw

Post by Ovyron » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:39 am

Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:58 am
Remember, online chess is not related to Fide rules. Websites have their own rules.
For example, premove is not available in FIDE, auto promotion is not available in Fide.
Online chess even allows drawing on the board! It was surprising to discover that places like lichess allow everyone to draw arrows, circles, and whatnot, on the board, while they're playing. This probably helps a lot people that can't visualize.

Imagine you on the chess board, and suddenly your opponent gets out her crayons, and starts drawing arrows on the board, knight goes here, queen goes there... how ridiculous would it be? Except it's even worse, because you don't even get to know, or see, what your opponent is drawing.

There's this thing called "ghost piece" where in their calculation, an opponent doesn't see that a knight is no longer there because it was moved in some imaginary situation, and checking for ghosts is an important chess ability. Yet these websites allow people to draw an arrow coming from the piece, so they don't forget it has moved in calculations. This is something in the edge of cheating.

Sure, premoving your way to winning on time is even worse, but I think drawing on the board should be something exclusive to post-game analysis, it doesn't really have a place in here, and it's almost as bad as having a second board where you can move your pieces around so you don't need to visualize at all...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

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