'Deus X' Unveiled as FAT FRITZ PROJECT...

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:14 pm

Re: 'Deus X' Unveiled as FAT FRITZ PROJECT...

Post by acepoint_de » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:43 pm

jp wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:37 am
AdminX wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:59 pm
If the root binary is LC0, then I would rather use LC0.
Yes, it's been confirmed.
By whom? Not that I didn't expect this... 8-) but can I somewhere else read about the confirmation?



Posts: 162
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 7:29 pm

Re: 'Deus X' Unveiled as FAT FRITZ PROJECT...

Post by crem » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:59 pm

acepoint_de wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:43 pm
By whom? Not that I didn't expect this... 8-) but can I somewhere else read about the confirmation?


E.g. here are screenshots of Discord chat where ASilver confirms that.

Posts: 1388
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: 'Deus X' Unveiled as FAT FRITZ PROJECT...

Post by jp » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:29 pm

acepoint_de wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:43 pm
jp wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:37 am
AdminX wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:59 pm
If the root binary is LC0, then I would rather use LC0.
Yes, it's been confirmed.
By whom?
By ChessBase on their website.

Posts: 902
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:54 am
Location: Southwest USA

Re: 'Deus X' Unveiled ..FAT FRITZ CLOUD...

Post by supersharp77 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:50 pm


https://en.chessbase.com/post/using-fat ... gine-cloud

"Using Fat Fritz in the Engine Cloud
by Nadja Wittmann I like it! | 1 Comments I like it!
8/15/2019 – Earlier this week we announced the release of Fat Fritz. It is a Neural Network program, inspired by Google's AlphaZero project, and it runs on the latest and most powerful hardware that is currently available. It has been secretly tested by a number of leading players, but it is now available for regular users as well. You cannot buy Fat Fritz — it's only use it in the Engine Cloud. For those who have never used this service before here is a brief tutorial.
What is Fat Fritz?
Fat Fritz is an advanced AlphaZero-type artificial intelligence chess engine that has been trained from millions of games and billions of positions from top human and computer-vs-computer games, endgame tablebases, as well as exclusively generated self-play games. Fat Fritz runs on a modified version of the open-source Lc0 binary, but using its custom-trained Fat Fritz neural network.

Fat Fritz runs in the ChessBase Engine Cloud on computers equipped with two top-of-the-line graphics cards (GPUs), calculating hundreds of times faster than a neural network running on only CPUs.

Where can I find Fat Fritz?
ChessBase 15 - Starter Package

The entry into the chess cosmos. ChessBase 15 program + new Big Database 2019 (7.6 million uncommented games). Plus 3 issues ChessBase Magazine and CB Premium membership for 6 months!


Just like all the other engines available online for analysis, Fat Fritz can be found in the ChessBase Engine Cloud. There are several quick ways to do this from within ChessBase 15, or Fritz program (such as Fritz 16, Komodo, or Houdini). One obvious way is to go to the menu bar at top and click on the Cloud Engines button:
Another very easy way is just to open a game or board position and start an engine with Add Kibitzer.
When you do this you get a list of the engines you can open, all in your computer, but under the list is the Cloud button. Just click on it and this way too will take you to the Engine Cloud window.
Finally, if you have an engine already open and analysing, you may notice a cute little button on the top right of it with a Cloud icon. Click on it and this too will take you to the Cloud Engine nirvana:
Whichever path you take, once activated, you will be shown the Engine Cloud window with the list of all the engines available for use. And from now on you will also find the big guy there: Fat Fritz!
What do the coloured icons at the left of the table mean?

You will notice that they all have a green, yellow, or red icon before their names. These tell you which are available or not right now.

green medal = engine is available
yellow medal = engine is in use but can be taken by users offering a higher rate
red medal = the engine is reserved for the reliable rate and being worked with
How can I rent Fat Fritz?

If the button on the left edge of the list is green, that means that Fat Fritz is available for rent. Just double-click the engine to run it.

How much does it cost?

When Fat Fritz is idle, it costs 0.49 ducats per minute. This corresponds to under four Euros per hour, so analysing for 15 minutes online with Fat Fritz costs 75 Euro cents, at the normal rate.
Ducats are the internal currency used in ChessBase servers. If you don't have any, or don't have enough for your needs, you can purchase Ducats from the ChessBase Shop.
Do I have to wait if Fat Fritz is already taken?

Only one user at a time can use Fat Fritz, in order to maintain the full calculation power. That is why you will have to wait until the active user has finished his analysis. Alternately you can also offer a higher bid in order to get Fat Fritz sooner.

What does "Set reliable rate" per minute mean?

Whoever offers the reliable rate will receive the engine at once and can be sure to keep it for that price as long as he or she wishes. It is like the system used on eBay.

What are the system requirements to run Fat Fritz?

That is the beauty of the Engine Cloud system! All you need is a working PC and internet connection. All the computational heavy lifting is done on the other side, so it will not only run at top speeds regardless of your PC or laptop, but will not use any of its power to drain the battery if a laptop is being used. You can even run a local engine at the same time or rent multiple engines at the same time if that is what you want.

The NPS (nodes per second) and depth seem very low compared to other engines, is something wrong?

Neural networks are a very different beast, and even on thousands of dollars of hardware such as here, will barely break the tens of thousands of NPS compared to the tens of millions of NPS an engine such as Komodo or Stockfish might reach. This is normal, but don't let it fool you: given a minimum of thinking time, 50 thousand nodes per second on Fat Fritz is easily worth 50 million nodes per second on Stockfish or Komodo." (Chessbase Site)

Well Friends and Citizens..."FAT FRITZ WON'T BE FREE"..... :) :wink:

User avatar
Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: 'Deus X' Unveiled as FAT FRITZ PROJECT...

Post by Ovyron » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:15 am

Laskos wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:07 pm
Ovyron wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:12 am
The Rybka Cluster all over again...
Yes, but Lc0 hardly scales beyond 2 GPUs.
I don't know what you're implying...

The Rybka Cluster was a big failure, because with all the money you'd use renting it, eventually you could buy decent hardware, and outperform it with "regular software" (the best chess engine, which at that point wasn't Rybka anymore.) Spending money on RC was stupid because you'd just take longer to save for decent hardware (which meant Rybka hardly scaled beyond 4CPU).

Here, if buying decent hardware for LC0 is going to allow you to outperform Fat Fritz, the best you can do is to not rent Fat Fritz, and buy the hardware, and use LC0.

I also don't know if LC0 is going to be able to outpace Fat Fritz eventually, or if people with some decent hardware they already have outpace Fat Fritz already, or if LC0 of September 2019 is going to do it, so I'm not sure renting FF would be cost-effective till then.

So I expect Fat Fritz to fail spectacularly, mainly because Stockfish is around, and it's free.

Some telling parts of the article are these one:
A number of top players will probably not allow us to reveal what they had found — the positions and moves they shared with us. "I cannot let you use them in your articles," one of them typically wrote. "They haven't yet been used in practice, and for obvious reasons I want to reserve them for future games, to score points." A number of them did not even want us to tell people that they had been working with the machine.
Really? I can't believe these are moves that Stockfish and Leela are unable to see. These seem like comments from someone that has never analyzed moves with an engine, and it's shocked to see they suggest great stuff that has never been played "in practice", even though "in practice" just means human games (haha, I wonder if they analyzed the Italian with Fat Fritz and were shocked to find a line that gives black the edge, despite SF/LC0's users finding that line since more than half a year ago...)
Five-time World Champion Vishy Anand was an exception, and gratefully so.
But Anand didn't share with them any positions or moves... so it reads more like "A number of top players used Fat Fritz, and only these two had to say something nice about it, and one of them wishes to remain anonymous." :roll:

This all looks like sales pitch, if it wasn't, they'd have shown positions where Fat Fritz is the only thing that finds what's best, they couldn't show those because if they tried, they'd have been ridiculed after people found LC0 and Stockfish also find those moves.

The anonymous guy would have been ridiculed because they just found out there are strong moves that haven't been played in human games yet (which has been known for more than a decade.)

Vishy Anand would have been ridiculed because he just found out his whole repertoire is outdated (but that he could have fixed it with Stocfish or Leela.)

That's why the article lacks any chess in it. The best they got was a game against Rofchade. Excuse me, who? Oh, top 14 engine. Excuse my ignorance, Rofchade is actually free and quite stronger than latest Rybka (their commercial Fritz 16 rebrand.) My point is they couldn't even show a game were Fat Fritz annihilated LC0 or Stockfish or something newsworthy (ala Alpha Zero.)

Cash grab.
Your beliefs create your reality, so be careful what you wish for.

Post Reply