Out of the Kai 450 positions, 99 not found by SF

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Ovyron
Posts: 2333
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: Out of the Kai 450 positions, 99 not found by SF

Post by Ovyron » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:12 pm

zullil wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:21 pm
Thanks. I can't believe how horrible the quality of the play is. At a time control of 10 moves in 50 days? With open access to chess engines?
What about this
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1019339 or this
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1019281 or this
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1019332
(all from same tournament)

All the quality of play is horrible, can you now believe me when I say at this level there's clearly some BEST MOVE that beats the guys the fastest?

This is no different than unassisted engine games, though, which presumably can be defeated by the losing people of those games, so if BEST MOVES exist there, BEST MOVES exist here.
Make someone happy today.

zullil
Posts: 5555
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Out of the Kai 450 positions, 99 not found by SF

Post by zullil » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:37 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:12 pm
zullil wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:21 pm
Thanks. I can't believe how horrible the quality of the play is. At a time control of 10 moves in 50 days? With open access to chess engines?
What about this
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1019339 or this
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1019281 or this
https://www.iccf.com/game?id=1019332
(all from same tournament)

All the quality of play is horrible, can you now believe me when I say at this level there's clearly some BEST MOVE that beats the guys the fastest?

This is no different than unassisted engine games, though, which presumably can be defeated by the losing people of those games, so if BEST MOVES exist there, BEST MOVES exist here.
First, I'm sorry that I implied that perhaps you were delusional.

Second, I'm afraid to look at any of your linked games. Clearly I had no idea how bad ICCF games can be.

Third, I accept that in an actual game you can use information about your opponent in deciding what move to play.

jp
Posts: 701
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: Out of the Kai 450 positions, 99 not found by SF

Post by jp » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:31 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:12 pm
All the quality of play is horrible
Why is that?

Zenmastur
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Out of the Kai 450 positions, 99 not found by SF

Post by Zenmastur » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:30 pm

zullil wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:37 pm

Second, I'm afraid to look at any of your linked games. Clearly I had no idea how bad ICCF games can be.
I've never see games so bad as that. If all my ICCF opponents played like that I'd be World Champion!

I can assure you that game isn't representative of "normal" games in ICCF! I'm afraid to look at the other games from the tournament!

I honestly have never seen 2300 level players play like that. I'm actually embarrassed by the level of play.

Regards,

Zenmastur
Last edited by Zenmastur on Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Uri Blass
Posts: 8530
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Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Out of the Kai 450 positions, 99 not found by SF

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:47 pm

Zenmastur wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:30 pm
zullil wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:37 pm

Second, I'm afraid to look at any of your linked games. Clearly I had no idea how bad ICCF games can be.
I've never see games so bad as that. If all my ICCF opponents played like that I'd be World Champion!

I can assure you that game isn't representative of "normal" games in ICCF! I'm afraid to look at the other games from the tournament!

I honestly have never seen 2300 players play like that.

Regards,

Zenmastur
There is a reason these players have 2300 and not 2500 or 2600
2300 is clearly weaker level than chess engines in correspondence chess.

In order to be world champion you need to beat players with higher ICCF rating.

Zenmastur
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Out of the Kai 450 positions, 99 not found by SF

Post by Zenmastur » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:53 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:47 pm
Zenmastur wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:30 pm
zullil wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:37 pm

Second, I'm afraid to look at any of your linked games. Clearly I had no idea how bad ICCF games can be.
I've never see games so bad as that. If all my ICCF opponents played like that I'd be World Champion!

I can assure you that game isn't representative of "normal" games in ICCF! I'm afraid to look at the other games from the tournament!

I honestly have never seen 2300 players play like that.

Regards,

Zenmastur
There is a reason these players have 2300 and not 2500 or 2600
2300 is clearly weaker level than chess engines in correspondence chess.

In order to be world champion you need to beat players with higher ICCF rating.

I'm a 2300+ level player and I have NEVER met an opponent of that level that played a game so badly! NEVER!

I'm having trouble believing that that is a "real" ICCF tournament. I've never seen players of that level play so badly!

Regards,

Zen
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

jp
Posts: 701
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: Out of the Kai 450 positions, 99 not found by SF

Post by jp » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:43 am

Zenmastur wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:53 pm
I'm a 2300+ level player and I have NEVER met an opponent of that level that played a game so badly! NEVER!

I'm having trouble believing that that is a "real" ICCF tournament. I've never seen players of that level play so badly!
I previously assumed a "bad" CC player would follow an engine too much, not too little, so the quality of games would never be much worse than an engine-engine game. Is that not true?

zullil
Posts: 5555
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Out of the Kai 450 positions, 99 not found by SF

Post by zullil » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:54 am

jp wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:43 am
Zenmastur wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:53 pm
I'm a 2300+ level player and I have NEVER met an opponent of that level that played a game so badly! NEVER!

I'm having trouble believing that that is a "real" ICCF tournament. I've never seen players of that level play so badly!
I previously assumed a "bad" CC player would follow an engine too much, not too little, so the quality of games would never be much worse than an engine-engine game. Is that not true?
That's what I believed, but evidence suggests otherwise.

I think I forget that economic conditions and access to high-quality hardware likely vary considerably among ICCF members.

jp
Posts: 701
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:54 am

Re: Out of the Kai 450 positions, 99 not found by SF

Post by jp » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:05 am

zullil wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:54 am
I think I forget that economic conditions and access to high-quality hardware likely vary considerably among ICCF members.
Yes, that's what I was wondering. If they don't own a computer, that makes it hard.

Zenmastur
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Out of the Kai 450 positions, 99 not found by SF

Post by Zenmastur » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:28 am

zullil wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:54 am
jp wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:43 am
Zenmastur wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:53 pm
I'm a 2300+ level player and I have NEVER met an opponent of that level that played a game so badly! NEVER!

I'm having trouble believing that that is a "real" ICCF tournament. I've never seen players of that level play so badly!
I previously assumed a "bad" CC player would follow an engine too much, not too little, so the quality of games would never be much worse than an engine-engine game. Is that not true?
That's what I believed, but evidence suggests otherwise.

I think I forget that economic conditions and access to high-quality hardware likely vary considerably among ICCF members.
I know there are still players that don't use computers. For the most part they don't achieve very high ratings. Some players aren't very computer savvy and so don't do as well either. Some players that quit for a time and come back often don't do as well as they use to. But, I'm at a loss for the game he played.

There may be other reasons for poor play. I had a major medical procedure/problems that affected my play for the last year or so. I haven't started any new events because of it. Until I get my medications and health issues under control I won't be entering new events. I'm sure I'm not the only person that has "external" problems that affect their play. Once you've started an event there isn't much you can do other than work around what ever issues you are having.

I always wanted to try correspondence chess but never got around to it. When I first started I wasn't sure I would live long enough to actually complete any games. They wanted me to play a "test" match to see if I liked it. I told them no, because I didn't think I would live long enough and I want to get a "standard" ICCF rating. So, I'm sure that there are valid reasons why someone doesn't always play their best. Even so, that game does seem unusual in that MANY of the opponents moves seem to be errors.

If I were Ovyron, I would be very happy with myself for getting into a position to get an IM NORM!

Congrats!

Regards,

Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

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