Smith Morra Bust?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
zenpawn
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:31 pm
Location: United States

Smith Morra Bust?

Post by zenpawn » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:11 pm

18-year old USCF Expert Elijah Logozar claims to have refuted the Smith Morra Gambit. His mainline goes:

US Chess is offering an unspecified prize to the best counter-analysis submitted before Aug 15, 2019.
See https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/ for the teen's comments on the line.
Erin Dame
Author of RookieMonster

jdart
Posts: 3817
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:23 am
Location: http://www.arasanchess.org

Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by jdart » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:19 pm

6. .. a6 is usual but Nge7 does not look bad.

However, White doesn't have to play 6. Bc4, although that is by far the most popular. Bd3 is possible for example.

--Jon

todd
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:09 pm

Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by todd » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:44 pm

"Bust" is a bit of an extreme word in this case.

I have been communicating with him, and I found forced draws for white in his proposed line (and he agreed with my analysis).

Nevertheless, I think he correctly claims that in his lines, black is the one pressing and white is (successfully, with good play) trying to hold, which is a pretty good outcome for black in chess.

zullil
Posts: 5613
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by zullil » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:05 am

todd wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:44 pm
"Bust" is a bit of an extreme word in this case.

I have been communicating with him, and I found forced draws for white in his proposed line (and he agreed with my analysis).

Nevertheless, I think he correctly claims that in his lines, black is the one pressing and white is (successfully, with good play) trying to hold, which is a pretty good outcome for black in chess.
At https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/ he claims that the following is 0-1. If he now accepts that it's a draw, then a correction/addendum should be added.



Cfish-dev doesn't seem to believe 0-1:

-0.30 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 e5 16. Kb1 Bg4 17. Nxb7 Nd4 18. Nxd4 Bxd1 19. Nc6+ Kd7 20. Nxe5+ fxe5 21. Rxd1+ Kc7 22. Bd5 Rb8 23. Na5 Bc5 24. Rc1 Kd6 25. Bf3 Bb6 26. Rc6+ Ke7 27. Nc4 Bd4 28. Rxg6 Rxh2 29. Be4 Rc8 30. Bd5 Rd8 31. Be4 Bxf2 32. Nxe5 Rd2 33. a4 Bd4 34. Nc4 Rf2 35. Rc6 Rh1+ 36. Ka2 Re1 37. Bf3 Kf8 38. Rd6 Bg7 39. Rc6 Re8 40. Rc7 Rb8 41. Rxa7 Bxb2 42. Nxb2 Rfxb2+ 43. Ka1 R8b4 44. Bd5 Rd2 45. Bf3 Rc4 46. Kb1 Rc3 47. Bh5 (depth 53, 1:17:43)

Nay Lin Tun
Posts: 514
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:34 am

Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:29 am

todd wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:44 pm
"Bust" is a bit of an extreme word in this case.

I have been communicating with him, and I found forced draws for white in his proposed line (and he agreed with my analysis).

Nevertheless, I think he correctly claims that in his lines, black is the one pressing and white is (successfully, with good play) trying to hold, which is a pretty good outcome for black in chess.
I agreed. Most of gambits are unsound in today technology with tons of analysis.

Busted is unsound media claim in exaggeration. Yes, white will end up with one pawn deficit if black can play accurately.

Because chess is an extremely drawish game with big margin of error. One pawn advantage is not generally gauranteed for the win for the advantaged side. Almost all endgame with one pawn advantage end as draw unless the advantaged side can control the pawn promoting square. I saw smith morgan and similar unsound gambits in TCEC, white is still able to get a draw with one pawn material deficit.


P.S, my personal feeling is one pawn handicap in starting position with 31 men Tablebase is still draw ( unless it is not "f" pawn handicap). :)

zullil
Posts: 5613
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by zullil » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:18 am

zullil wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:05 am
todd wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:44 pm
"Bust" is a bit of an extreme word in this case.

I have been communicating with him, and I found forced draws for white in his proposed line (and he agreed with my analysis).

Nevertheless, I think he correctly claims that in his lines, black is the one pressing and white is (successfully, with good play) trying to hold, which is a pretty good outcome for black in chess.
At https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/ he claims that the following is 0-1. If he now accepts that it's a draw, then a correction/addendum should be added.



Cfish-dev doesn't seem to believe 0-1:

-0.30 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 e5 16. Kb1 Bg4 17. Nxb7 Nd4 18. Nxd4 Bxd1 19. Nc6+ Kd7 20. Nxe5+ fxe5 21. Rxd1+ Kc7 22. Bd5 Rb8 23. Na5 Bc5 24. Rc1 Kd6 25. Bf3 Bb6 26. Rc6+ Ke7 27. Nc4 Bd4 28. Rxg6 Rxh2 29. Be4 Rc8 30. Bd5 Rd8 31. Be4 Bxf2 32. Nxe5 Rd2 33. a4 Bd4 34. Nc4 Rf2 35. Rc6 Rh1+ 36. Ka2 Re1 37. Bf3 Kf8 38. Rd6 Bg7 39. Rc6 Re8 40. Rc7 Rb8 41. Rxa7 Bxb2 42. Nxb2 Rfxb2+ 43. Ka1 R8b4 44. Bd5 Rd2 45. Bf3 Rc4 46. Kb1 Rc3 47. Bh5 (depth 53, 1:17:43)
And even less like 0-1 now:

-0.15 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 Bh6+ 16. Kb1 Rd8 17. Nxc8+ Raxc8 18. Rhe1 Rxd1+ 19. Rxd1 Rd8 20. Rxd8 Nxd8 21. Kc2 Bg7 22. a3 f5 23. b4 e5 24. g3 e4 25. Nh4 Kf6 26. Ng2 Nf7 27. h4 Nd6 28. Ba2 Nb5 29. a4 Nd4+ 30. Kd2 b5 31. axb5 Nxb5 32. Bc4 Nd4 33. Ne3 Nf3+ 34. Kd1 Bf8 35. Bb5 Kg7 36. Nd5 Kf7 37. Bc4 Ne5 38. Bb5 Ke6 39. Nf4+ Kf6 40. Nd5+ Kf7 41. Ke2 Bh6 42. Ne3 Nf3 43. Bc4+ Ke7 44. Kd1 Bxe3 45. fxe3 Kf6 46. Kc2 Kg7 47. Kc3 Kh6 (depth 62, 8:21:44)

zullil
Posts: 5613
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by zullil » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:01 pm

zullil wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:18 am
zullil wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:05 am
todd wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:44 pm
"Bust" is a bit of an extreme word in this case.

I have been communicating with him, and I found forced draws for white in his proposed line (and he agreed with my analysis).

Nevertheless, I think he correctly claims that in his lines, black is the one pressing and white is (successfully, with good play) trying to hold, which is a pretty good outcome for black in chess.
At https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/ he claims that the following is 0-1. If he now accepts that it's a draw, then a correction/addendum should be added.



Cfish-dev doesn't seem to believe 0-1:

-0.30 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 e5 16. Kb1 Bg4 17. Nxb7 Nd4 18. Nxd4 Bxd1 19. Nc6+ Kd7 20. Nxe5+ fxe5 21. Rxd1+ Kc7 22. Bd5 Rb8 23. Na5 Bc5 24. Rc1 Kd6 25. Bf3 Bb6 26. Rc6+ Ke7 27. Nc4 Bd4 28. Rxg6 Rxh2 29. Be4 Rc8 30. Bd5 Rd8 31. Be4 Bxf2 32. Nxe5 Rd2 33. a4 Bd4 34. Nc4 Rf2 35. Rc6 Rh1+ 36. Ka2 Re1 37. Bf3 Kf8 38. Rd6 Bg7 39. Rc6 Re8 40. Rc7 Rb8 41. Rxa7 Bxb2 42. Nxb2 Rfxb2+ 43. Ka1 R8b4 44. Bd5 Rd2 45. Bf3 Rc4 46. Kb1 Rc3 47. Bh5 (depth 53, 1:17:43)
And even less like 0-1 now:

-0.15 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 Bh6+ 16. Kb1 Rd8 17. Nxc8+ Raxc8 18. Rhe1 Rxd1+ 19. Rxd1 Rd8 20. Rxd8 Nxd8 21. Kc2 Bg7 22. a3 f5 23. b4 e5 24. g3 e4 25. Nh4 Kf6 26. Ng2 Nf7 27. h4 Nd6 28. Ba2 Nb5 29. a4 Nd4+ 30. Kd2 b5 31. axb5 Nxb5 32. Bc4 Nd4 33. Ne3 Nf3+ 34. Kd1 Bf8 35. Bb5 Kg7 36. Nd5 Kf7 37. Bc4 Ne5 38. Bb5 Ke6 39. Nf4+ Kf6 40. Nd5+ Kf7 41. Ke2 Bh6 42. Ne3 Nf3 43. Bc4+ Ke7 44. Kd1 Bxe3 45. fxe3 Kf6 46. Kc2 Kg7 47. Kc3 Kh6 (depth 62, 8:21:44)
-0.15 14. Nd6 f6 15. Nf3 e5 16. Kb1 Bg4 17. Nxb7 Nd4 18. Nxd4 Bxd1 19. Nc6+ Kd7 20. Nxe5+ fxe5 21. Rxd1+ Kc7 22. Bd5 Rb8 23. Na5 Bc5 24. Nc4 Bxf2 25. Nxe5 Rbe8 26. Nxg6 Rxh2 27. Bf3 Re1 28. Rxe1 Bxe1 29. Nf4 Bg3 30. Nd3 Kb6 31. Kc2 Kb5 32. Kc3 Bh4 33. Kb3 Rh1 34. a4+ Kb6 35. Kc4 Ra1 36. b3 Bg3 37. Kd4 Ka5 38. Bc6 Ra2 39. Bf3 a6 40. Kd5 Kb6 41. Kc4 a5 42. Kd4 Ra3 43. Kc4 Ra1 44. Be4 Rh1 45. b4 Rh4 46. Kd4 Rh8 47. bxa5+ Kxa5 48. Ke3 Rf8 49. Bc6 Rc8 50. Bd5 Rc3 51. Ke4 Kxa4 52. Nf4 Ka5 (depth 64, 11:41:10)

User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 2524
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by Ovyron » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:43 pm

Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:29 am
Busted is unsound media claim in exaggeration.
Nah, they're using the same word I used when this happened to the Italian, except those lines remain private :mrgreen: (what's the point of finding 7...h6 if you don't use it to beat anybody?)

My analysis has 7...f6!! as best move instead, with a similar end score at the end of the line. I wonder if I missed my chance to become famous claiming I busted the Smith Morra with 7...f6 :roll:

Uri Blass
Posts: 8558
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by Uri Blass » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:54 pm

zenpawn wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:11 pm
18-year old USCF Expert Elijah Logozar claims to have refuted the Smith Morra Gambit. His mainline goes:

US Chess is offering an unspecified prize to the best counter-analysis submitted before Aug 15, 2019.
See https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/ for the teen's comments on the line.
h6 is not a novelty

I can find in chesstempo that
White won against h6 in the following human-human game in 1994

Carrion-Lara, Luis vs Schermer, Anton

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 Nc6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Bc4 Nge7 7. Bg5 h6 8. Nb5 d5 9. exd5 exd5 10. Bf4 Ng6 11. Nc7+ Ke7 12. Nxd5+ Ke8 13. Nc7+ Ke7 14. Qe2+

zullil
Posts: 5613
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Smith Morra Bust?

Post by zullil » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:27 pm

Ovyron wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:43 pm
Nay Lin Tun wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:29 am
Busted is unsound media claim in exaggeration.
Nah, they're using the same word I used when this happened to the Italian, except those lines remain private :mrgreen: (what's the point of finding 7...h6 if you don't use it to beat anybody?)

My analysis has 7...f6!! as best move instead, with a similar end score at the end of the line. I wonder if I missed my chance to become famous claiming I busted the Smith Morra with 7...f6 :roll:
I find it difficult to believe that you'd beat anyone with 7...h6. Even at 12+2 time control. Unless the hardware and software you compete against is very weak. The line does seem to show that the gambit, like most gambits, has no chance of being winning for White, at least against decent (i.e., non-human) opposition.

Post Reply