buying a new computer

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MikeB
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by MikeB » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:03 am

Zenmastur wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:28 pm
MikeB wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:41 pm
Another CPU to consider - November release , less than $1000

Core i9-10980XE Extreme Edition: 18 cores/36 threads; 3.0GHz base, turbo (Turbo 2.0: 4.6GHz, Turbo 3.0; 4.8GHz); $979
The new 10th Gen I9 chips looks promising. They support 256 GB memory at 2933Mhz, more PCI 3 lanes, faster clock speeds etc. The BIG deal is that you get all this at half the cost of the 9th Gen chips. This makes them competitive. You can all thank AMD for this, as INTEL would have NEVER done this of their own accord. They were forced to do this to remain relevant!

I am glad I didn't build a new system yet. I now plan on waiting for the reviews on the new I9 chips and the 3950X and Threadrippers. Since the cost to performance ratios aren't yet know for any of these chips it's not possible to make “reasonable” comparisons yet. I personally hate INTEL since they have shown their willingness to screw their costumers every chance they get, but I'm more interested in getting the best system for the money spent so I will wait. Their are currently too many unknowns to come to any rational conclusions.

As far as the i9 9980 being slightly slower than the 7980's is due to the data passing system being changed between the two chips. Not a huge deal if you ask me. The i9 10980XE I believe will have the same “problem” if you want to call it that as the 9980 but will make up for it with faster clock speeds etc.

I doubt we will see a 64-core Threadripper anytime soon. However, 24-core and 32-core will be available. Two flavors will be available. 4-channel memory and 8-channel memory. The 8-channel memory version will solve the memory issues that the older 32-core version of Threadripper had. I'm expecting 100+M nps from a 32-core 4-channel version and maybe as high as 110M for the 32-core 8-channel version. The R9 3950 should be in the 60+M nps range.

This is of course all speculation until we get benchmarks from all the chips involved, including Intels.

If you want a high power system I suggest you wait if you can.

Regards,

Zenmastur
Agree 100%, now is the time to wait. We might looking at 100M nps machine for somewhere less than $5000 , considering a 200M nps is likely north of $15K, the value for the 100M nps is compelling. Quick question on the GE FORCE GPUS - which one is the best value for the money - is it the RTX 2080 Ti or maybe getting two 2060 GPU's or some other GPU?

Zenmastur
Posts: 487
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: buying a new computer

Post by Zenmastur » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:58 am

MikeB wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:03 am
Zenmastur wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:28 pm
MikeB wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:41 pm
Another CPU to consider - November release , less than $1000

Core i9-10980XE Extreme Edition: 18 cores/36 threads; 3.0GHz base, turbo (Turbo 2.0: 4.6GHz, Turbo 3.0; 4.8GHz); $979
The new 10th Gen I9 chips looks promising. They support 256 GB memory at 2933Mhz, more PCI 3 lanes, faster clock speeds etc. The BIG deal is that you get all this at half the cost of the 9th Gen chips. This makes them competitive. You can all thank AMD for this, as INTEL would have NEVER done this of their own accord. They were forced to do this to remain relevant!

I am glad I didn't build a new system yet. I now plan on waiting for the reviews on the new I9 chips and the 3950X and Threadrippers. Since the cost to performance ratios aren't yet know for any of these chips it's not possible to make “reasonable” comparisons yet. I personally hate INTEL since they have shown their willingness to screw their costumers every chance they get, but I'm more interested in getting the best system for the money spent so I will wait. Their are currently too many unknowns to come to any rational conclusions.

As far as the i9 9980 being slightly slower than the 7980's is due to the data passing system being changed between the two chips. Not a huge deal if you ask me. The i9 10980XE I believe will have the same “problem” if you want to call it that as the 9980 but will make up for it with faster clock speeds etc.

I doubt we will see a 64-core Threadripper anytime soon. However, 24-core and 32-core will be available. Two flavors will be available. 4-channel memory and 8-channel memory. The 8-channel memory version will solve the memory issues that the older 32-core version of Threadripper had. I'm expecting 100+M nps from a 32-core 4-channel version and maybe as high as 110M for the 32-core 8-channel version. The R9 3950 should be in the 60+M nps range.

This is of course all speculation until we get benchmarks from all the chips involved, including Intels.

If you want a high power system I suggest you wait if you can.

Regards,

Zenmastur
Agree 100%, now is the time to wait. We might looking at 100M nps machine for somewhere less than $5000 , considering a 200M nps is likely north of $15K, the value for the 100M nps is compelling. Quick question on the GE FORCE GPUS - which one is the best value for the money - is it the RTX 2080 Ti or maybe getting two 2060 GPU's or some other GPU?
That's a good question. I was thinking two mid range cards will out perform a high end card for less money. I was looking at the 2070 supers @ $500 US. But I think the same would apply to the 2060 supers. It all depends on the price of the cards AND you should consider that if you use 2 lower tier cards there is not a good upgrade path. But if you don't plan on upgrading I think this is the way to go.

I would stay away from the 2060's because they only have 6GB of VRAM. The 2060 Supers all have 8gb of VRAM as far as I know. I would also stay away from reference design cards. Best to check reviews of the thermal performance of any card you select as this can be an issue in dual card configurations.

The cheapest 2080 Ti I've seen is $1050, not sure of the quality. You can get a 2060 Super of good quality for $400 and 2070 Supers are $500.

I'm going to build a 100M+nps machine for < $3000. So yes, you can get them for less than $5K US.

Regards,

Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Dann Corbit
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:04 am

MikeB wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:03 am
Agree 100%, now is the time to wait. We might looking at 100M nps machine for somewhere less than $5000 , considering a 200M nps is likely north of $15K, the value for the 100M nps is compelling. Quick question on the GE FORCE GPUS - which one is the best value for the money - is it the RTX 2080 Ti or maybe getting two 2060 GPU's or some other GPU?
I guess that the 2080 Super is the most nodes per dollar.
If you buy a PCie4 based machine with lots of memory lanes, you might be able to run 4x.
https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu. ... ER&id=4123

This spreadsheet does not have the 2080 super though:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1508569046

Hard to know for sure unless someone actually benchmarks a given configuration.

When I look for GPU servers, they always want to configure them with the ultra-expensive cards and do not have options for consumer cards like the 2080 super.

Makes me a little nervous to try those configurations.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Zenmastur
Posts: 487
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: buying a new computer

Post by Zenmastur » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:22 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:04 am
MikeB wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:03 am
Agree 100%, now is the time to wait. We might looking at 100M nps machine for somewhere less than $5000 , considering a 200M nps is likely north of $15K, the value for the 100M nps is compelling. Quick question on the GE FORCE GPUS - which one is the best value for the money - is it the RTX 2080 Ti or maybe getting two 2060 GPU's or some other GPU?
I guess that the 2080 Super is the most nodes per dollar.
If you buy a PCie4 based machine with lots of memory lanes, you might be able to run 4x.
https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu. ... ER&id=4123

This spreadsheet does not have the 2080 super though:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1508569046

Hard to know for sure unless someone actually benchmarks a given configuration.

When I look for GPU servers, they always want to configure them with the ultra-expensive cards and do not have options for consumer cards like the 2080 super.

Makes me a little nervous to try those configurations.
I don't know how well the NN engines scale on more than 2 cards. So, until I see hard figure on a specific 4-card configuration I would be leary of trying it out on a new build. But that's just me I guess. Some people are more adventurous than I.

Regards,

Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Dann Corbit
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:58 am

If 4 cards don't work together, even with 8 channel memory and PCie4, you could always run 2 pairs of 2 cards with two instances of LC0 to double your throughput.

I do admit it is a gamble to go after any software implementation + hardware combination that has never been tried.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Zenmastur
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Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 6:28 am

Re: buying a new computer

Post by Zenmastur » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:00 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:58 am
If 4 cards don't work together, even with 8 channel memory and PCie4, you could always run 2 pairs of 2 cards with two instances of LC0 to double your throughput.

I do admit it is a gamble to go after any software implementation + hardware combination that has never been tried.
For "normal' desktop MB's 3 is the max number of RTX card I know are supported. Server MB's can support up to 10, but these are very expensive and hard to find. Some high end non-server MB's can handle 4 cards. i.e. they have enough PCIe lanes and enough slots spaced so that 4 cards will fit and still have some room for airflow for the cards and you can use PCI risers. Getting them all to work/ or all to work together is another matter. And then there is the power supply issue. You have to have a 1200-1600 watt PS plus enough connectors to supply power to all cards, the cpu and all case fans and a big enough case to handle above plus tons of fans. It take a lot of time to specify all the components for a custom build even if you do this for a living.

Three card I think would be easy with a little extra work. Four or more and you are asking for trouble unless you have a large budget and a lot of time to spare.

As far as the most nps per dollar I think the 2070 is around 67nps / $ at a price of $470. For comparison the 2080 is around 42nps / $ at a price of $630 each. I think the 2070 Super might have slightly better performance / $ than the 2070 at a price of $500.

It would be nice to have an accurate scaling law for the RTX cards. From the spreadsheet you posted it looks like 3 X 2070 Supers would get you around 100Knps @ $1500 or 67NPS / $. This seems fast enough if you're on a budget.

Regards,

Zenmastur
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

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Nordlandia
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by Nordlandia » Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:03 am

I suspect water cooling is required for Core i9-10980XE Extreme Edition.

I currently have no experience with water cooling, and i'm wondering if Corsair H150i PRO is insufficient cooling solution for so many additional threads.

I have used radiators since about 2013 to date without noticeable problems.

Zenmastur
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by Zenmastur » Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:39 am

Nordlandia wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:03 am
I suspect water cooling is required for Core i9-10980XE Extreme Edition.

I currently have no experience with water cooling, and i'm wondering if Corsair H150i PRO is insufficient cooling solution for so many additional threads.

I have used radiators since about 2013 to date without noticeable problems.
It's still a 165 watt TDP part, so air cooling is still a viable option assuming a "normal" room temperature and a case with good airflow. A hard overclock would probably do better on water. But if I were going to do that I would invest in a water chiller. That way you can clock the hell out of it and not worry much about the thermals. I'm not fond of water so I would just clock it until I ran up to the thermal limit minus 5 to 10 degrees and call it good.

The H150i PRO's thermals aren't that great and it large and expensive. If you want to overclock there are better options I think. If you want low noise on mild to mid overclocks then it fits the bill.

Regards,

Zen
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

smatovic
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by smatovic » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:09 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:58 am
If 4 cards don't work together, even with 8 channel memory and PCie4, you could always run 2 pairs of 2 cards with two instances of LC0 to double your throughput.

I do admit it is a gamble to go after any software implementation + hardware combination that has never been tried.
People reported here already thermal problems with one single RTX card and LC0
so they had to add additional fans or to optimize the air flow, so I see little
chance for an air cooled 4 way gpu PC, maybe with an custom build water cooling
solution, but then maybe 2 PCs with a 2 way gpu setup would make more sense.

--
Srdja

brianr
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Re: buying a new computer

Post by brianr » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:55 am

Zenmastur wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:58 am
I would stay away from the 2060's because they only have 6GB of VRAM. The 2060 Supers all have 8gb of VRAM as far as I know. I would also stay away from reference design cards. Best to check reviews of the thermal performance of any card you select as this can be an issue in dual card configurations.

The cheapest 2080 Ti I've seen is $1050, not sure of the quality. You can get a 2060 Super of good quality for $400 and 2070 Supers are $500.

I'm going to build a 100M+nps machine for < $3000. So yes, you can get them for less than $5K US.

Regards,

Zenmastur
I don't think 6GB of VRAM is an issue when using Lc0 to play; it can be a factor when training nets (although batch size can be adjusted).

In the US (don't know if non-US shipping is an option) a 2060 can be had for $299 on sale, and I recently got a 2080ti for $949 (dual fan, quiet) from EVGA B-stock:
https://www.evga.com/products/productlist.aspx?type=8
Have to look from time to time (search for 'instant' savings); when on sale they sell out fast.

I primarily use the 2080ti to train nets (where the 11GB helps).
Check different models for clock speed differences.

For playing and particularly for analyzing for longer periods, more CPU RAM seems to be a more important factor.

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