bob wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:24 amWay past time to get off the old anti-ACM bandwagon,
Way past time to get off the old ICGA bandwagon also unless they reinvent themselves.
Wow - that was uncalled for. It seems like you are the ONE who is keeping it going. let it go ....
A new board would be a good start.
Change is the law of life.
-- John F. Kennedy
By no means , was the decision made taken lightly, they knew before hand the decision would be unpopular, but it is my opinion when one looks at all the evidence in its totality, the rules that were in place, the code that was found, the finding was correct. At this point in time, we all should moved way off this topic. In my opinion it was not a deliberate action to circumventive the rules, it was simply a total lack of judgment in entering in the tournament in the first place, Vas has paid the penalty more than he should have in my opinion, in part because people like yourself keeping bringing this up. I'm sure Vas is thinking , "Ed, please, let this go". The ICGA was 100% correct in determining that Vas had plagiarized both Crafty and Fruit. Simple as that , case over and for anyone to let anyone , bully anyone , way after the fact is just wrong. So Ed, you always like to get in the last word - so go for it , get in your last word in , but I can almost guarantee it will not be your last word, because you are now taking pride in being a bully. Bob is now retire, enjoying the fruits of labor, please just let him retire in peace. There is nothing than worse than the wrath of of a madman and I can be madman once provoked. If Vas really believed was wronged, he could have sued for demotion of character, that's what a normal person would have done in this situation if they were truly wronged. He chose not to , that in itself is telling. And I like Vas and I think its great he's working for Chessbase and he has paid his dues, he has redeemed himself and he has earned the right to be forgiven by all in the chess community. But you, continue to go after Bob , when Bob presented the evidence correctly as he was asked to , is just totally wrong and I can no longer be quiet about this I am calling you out on this issue. You, a fellow Christian , who renamed his engine Pro Deo, "For God", but you are no way acting like anyone that is "Pro Deo" and I urge to to reflect upon your animosity towards Bob and see if you can find peace with yourself and with Bob. I certainly hope so and I will pray for you. Amen, peace be with you.
Your brother in Christ and in Dutch DNA - 23 and me reported that I have ~20% of of Dutch DNA ;>)
Things are not always right because they are hard, but if they are right one must not mind if they are also hard.
-- Winston Churchill
On the red, you misunderstood, I wasn't referring to the R/F case -- although I admit my wordings could be interpreted that way -- but to an organization that wants to stick to an old outdated formula. Surely the R/F case has damaged their reutation but it is not the main reason of their decline. Ignoring the internet is. And it is deliberate. No progress -- or adaption to reality -- allowed. And now (in case you are interested) it's up to you to figure out why that is. Hence I said, they must reinvent themselves but before that possibly can happen the current board must go, new blood.
Your brother in Christ and in Dutch DNA - 23 and me reported that I have ~20% of of Dutch DNA ;>)
Always nice to meet a Dutch brother
90% of coding is debugging, the other 10% is writing bugs.
Rebel wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:51 am
On the red, you misunderstood, I wasn't referring to the R/F case -- although I admit my wordings could be interpreted that way -- but to an organization that wants to stick to an old outdated formula. Surely the R/F case has damaged their reutation but it is not the main reason of their decline. Ignoring the internet is. And it is deliberate. No progress -- or adaption to reality -- allowed. And now (in case you are interested) it's up to you to figure out why that is. Hence I said, they must reinvent themselves but before that possibly can happen the current board must go, new blood.
Your brother in Christ and in Dutch DNA - 23 and me reported that I have ~20% of of Dutch DNA ;>)
Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:20 am
My fervent hope is that the whole slimy ship should sink quietly into the
TCEC is only a little slimy, and it’s more of a dingy than a ship with its own issues of following its own rules.
TCEC, unfortunately, has all the excitement of a file copy in a server room.
WCCC has excitement precisely because of its flaws. Unequal hardware? Check. Losses because of operator error? Check. In person banter and discussions between teams? Check. Tiny sample size because of human involvement? Check.
As for FIDE backing a better organization: we are talking FIDE here.
Fat Titz by Stockfish, the engine with the bodaciously big net. Remember: size matters. If you want to learn more about this engine just google for "Fat Titz".
If I had to post one complaint about the ICGA (ICCA at the time) it would be that they catered too much to the commercial programs/programmers. One example: Ken Thompson and I proposed, in the late 70's, that the ACM/ICCA tournaments should move to an automatic interface mode. There were several reasons:
(1) eliminate operator errors, where there were MANY made, particularly back when everyone used English Descriptive chess notation. Recovering was a pain, was often unfair to your opponent if he was in the middle of a beneficial ponder-hit cycle with you, etc.
(2) Having the programs required to initiate requests for chess clock updates from the operators added more problems. Again, typos. And room to finagle if you entered the times wrong intentionally.
(3) Operator tension. It was up to the operator to make the moves on the real board, move the pieces, press the chess clock button, enter the opponent's move into the program. If you were on a bathroom visit when your opponent moved, you lost time on your clock.
(4) allowed for operator interference. I have already pointed out one specific example that affected me in one of the ACM/ICCA tournaments. We caught it on an early video recorder. No reason to have an operator "in the loop."
We proposed a simple RS232C communication protocol that was easy to do. I used it for my own blitz vs blitz testing back then. What was the problem? The popular chess machines, such as Ed's program, or mephisto, or Sargon, or chess challenger, or ... you get the drift here... those dedicated chess machines that did not have an RS232C external interface on 'em. So, "let's don't exclude the commercial programs..." And it remained an out-dated archaic systems as a result. One reason for keeping the commercial guys is that they (naturally) had to pay more to enter. Poor justification to me, but it factored in based on discussions I was privy to.
It became quite obvious to me that once ICS (The original computer chess club online game facility that morphed into ICC after a few years was the way of the future. And slowly but surely the commercial guys migrated to the PC platform anyway since the were as powerful as any other microprocessor around and one could still build a dedicated chess board (if you wanted one, like the DGT and such) that would eliminate the mouse input and screen output for the most part. But still the ICCA/ICGA failed to react.
I can't offer any explanation as to why we did not have automated events. When the CCC events on ICC reached 40-50 programs, I was always of the opinion that eventually the ICGA (after it had changed its name by then) would join the 21st century. But it never happened. When it became apparent that "virtual meetings" were much more acceptable and accessible for most everyone as opposed to a event with lots of travel time and days off from work, one could see the future. I liked the original format, because back then (70's) there was no internet, world wide web, GUIs like xboard and such, so an automated interface with remote participation was simply not feasible. Once or twice a program might compete using an operator over a phone line, but in general everyone came to play. However, there was a big cost here. Time off. Travel. Room costs. Board. Shipping stuff. Etc. The CCC events showed a "better way". Better in terms of cost and such, worse in terms of no face-to-face meetings and discussions. But we managed to have plenty of lively / technical discussions during the online events so they were anything but bad. As far as TCEC goes, not very interesting to me. More interesting to the various fans of each program, but not much there for the authors themselves. But, who cares?
Bottom line? Interest in computer chess is at an all-time low. Not because of the ICCA/ICGA/etc, but rather in spite of them. Even chess programs playing online has about dried up, EXCEPT for things like HGM's tournament for programmers only, as that is still a viable meeting place for programmers, even though the bandwidth is greatly reduced due to distances involved. Computer chess peaked in the 80's. Started to wane in the early 90's. Deep Blue was the final straw. Once Kasparov lost, it was almost over. Now that there are MANY different programs that just roll over GM players easily, there is nothing really left to captivate the imagination.
bob wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:24 amWay past time to get off the old anti-ACM bandwagon,
Way past time to get off the old ICGA bandwagon also unless they reinvent themselves.
Wow - that was uncalled for. It seems like you are the ONE who is keeping it going. let it go ....
"The ICGA, the International Computer Games Association, was founded as the ICCA in 1977 by computer chess programmers to organize championship events for computer programs and to facilitate the sharing of technical knowledge via the ICGA Journal."
"The ACM chess events, in 1975 renamed the ACM North American Computer Chess Championship, and in 1991 the ACM International Computer Chess Championship, were canceled in 1995 as Deep Blue was preparing for the first match against world chess champion Garry Kasparov."
What a fascinating discussion this has been. I had to look up some terms I never heard of before.
I hardly missed an ACM event, which started in 1970. I didn't compete until 1976, as we had no interactive terminal access on our computers at USM until we bought our Xerox Sigma 9. The very early events were VERY "dicey" to be kind. I remember things like pawns on the 8th rank, programs that got hung in a loop by continuously going for a mate in 2 rather than a mate in 1. The Levy bet. And then once 1980 rolled around, suddenly we were taking grandmaster scalps regularly in speed chess games. Until we reach today where they have trouble even when given material odds against a computer.
Lots of great memories from back then to be sure... back when everybody knew everybody and everyone was considered a friend.
bob wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:24 amWay past time to get off the old anti-ACM bandwagon,
Way past time to get off the old ICGA bandwagon also unless they reinvent themselves.
Pretty sad comment. The main thrust of the ICCA (then ICGA) was to foster interest in computer chess. They STILL provide that service via the annual mind games conference and ICGA Journal. The glory days of the WCCC are gone. It was a 1970's model of competition that failed to keep up with advances in technology, particularly networking. We would not be where we are today without them however, that is for certain.
The ICGA is now an outdated thing, just like printed newspapers, paperback books, etc. I buy all my books through Amazon for my kindle. NO trips needed to a book store. I get my news online, not from a daily piece of paper. Etc. Times change. Had absolutely nothing to do with Rybka and such.
bob wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:24 amWay past time to get off the old anti-ACM bandwagon,
Way past time to get off the old ICGA bandwagon also unless they reinvent themselves.
Pretty sad comment. The main thrust of the ICCA (then ICGA) was to foster interest in computer chess. They STILL provide that service via the annual mind games conference and ICGA Journal. The glory days of the WCCC are gone. It was a 1970's model of competition that failed to keep up with advances in technology, particularly networking. We would not be where we are today without them however, that is for certain.
The ICGA is now an outdated thing, just like printed newspapers, paperback books, etc. I buy all my books through Amazon for my kindle. NO trips needed to a book store. I get my news online, not from a daily piece of paper. Etc. Times change. Had absolutely nothing to do with Rybka and such.
Great quotes Mr Hyatt..(Bob) but that begs the question..what do you think of TCEC? When was the last time Crafty participated in the TCEC? Or do you prefer the Chess.com World computer Championship or some other format? Whats your opinion? Thx AR
ps. Also whats your take on the LC0/Alpha Zero Phenomenon?
bob wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:24 amWay past time to get off the old anti-ACM bandwagon,
Way past time to get off the old ICGA bandwagon also unless they reinvent themselves.
Pretty sad comment. The main thrust of the ICCA (then ICGA) was to foster interest in computer chess. They STILL provide that service via the annual mind games conference and ICGA Journal. The glory days of the WCCC are gone. It was a 1970's model of competition that failed to keep up with advances in technology, particularly networking. We would not be where we are today without them however, that is for certain.
The ICGA is now an outdated thing, just like printed newspapers, paperback books, etc. I buy all my books through Amazon for my kindle. NO trips needed to a book store. I get my news online, not from a daily piece of paper. Etc. Times change. Had absolutely nothing to do with Rybka and such.
When was the last time the WCCC took place in the US?
90% of coding is debugging, the other 10% is writing bugs.
-- but to an organization that wants to stick to an old outdated formula. Surely the R/F case has damaged their reutation but it is not the main reason of their decline. Ignoring the internet is. And it is deliberate. No progress -- or adaption to reality -- allowed. And now (in case you are interested) it's up to you to figure out why that is. Hence I said, they must reinvent themselves but before that possibly can happen the current board must go, new blood.
