WCCC vs TCEC Chess Engine Competitions..

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chrisw
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Re: WCCC vs TCEC Chess Engine Competitions..

Post by chrisw » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:07 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:20 am
Wccc is and has long been utterly irrelevant. A few Europeans will disagree. Their opinions are irrelevant also.
Wccc is watched by a tiny smattering of European chess nerds.
Tcec is watched by hoards of enthusiasts.
Wccc does not even follow their own rules.
I find them utterly repulsive, despite my flaming love for computer chess.
My fervent hope is that the whole slimy ship should sink quietly into the sea and Fide should recognize the error of their ways and back something sensible like Tcec.
IMO, YMMV
This European doesn’t disagree and finds the leadership of the organisation utterly repulsive also. I think the 4000 backers of the crowdfunded ZXVega console that never received their product would agree too.

supersharp77
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Location: Southwest USA

Re: WCCC vs TCEC Chess The History..THe Feuds

Post by supersharp77 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:57 pm

leavenfish wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:18 am
IanO wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:17 pm
Of the top three contenders, only Komodo has attended recently.
Team K...does like it's paper titles.

I've said that...it stirs up strong emotions, but seriously, it's either a nice vacation or a really good chance to tag 'World Champion' to the product - it is a commercial undertaking afterall.

It's kind of like a World Championship where the likes of Carlsen, Caruana, Vachier-Lagrave and such do not show up while others like Shankland, Marin and Hillarp Persson show up...Shankland wins and gets crowned "World Champion". It's fair (in a weird way) but a joke.
chrisw wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:02 am
chessmobile wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:16 am
FIDE and WCCC have a cosy relationship, I’m all for WCCC but to claim the title of World Champion engine seems a bit misleading to the average punter. When most people hear of World Champion in any endeavour they assume that somehow that is the best in the world. FIDE should just stick with Human chess and the WCCC organisers should look for some other self promotion and save themselves paying FIDE for the pleasure.
They certainly don’t have a “good relationship”. Read the FIDE Ethics committee report on the WCCC organisers.

viewtopic.php?t=53132&start=160

viewtopic.php?t=53132&start=160 (why dont strong engines enter WCCC)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... -rhiPLnbHg (who entered Leela in WCCC)

All that bad history floods back again into this current TCEC vs WCCC issue...As I remember (The debates were everywhere then) Rybka was banned(stripped) because of the claim is was using Fruit code...that would lead to Stockfish declines to enter because of the argument it was a Fruit clone' (fruit code) Leela0 (LC0) wanted to enter but then pulled back at some point because they used some Stockfish code somewhere.Ditto for Thinker and Loop (& Houdini). A very complicated (and Sad state of Affairs Indeed) :D :) :wink:

mwyoung
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Re: WCCC vs TCEC Chess The History..THe Feuds

Post by mwyoung » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:17 am

supersharp77 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:57 pm
leavenfish wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:18 am
IanO wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:17 pm
Of the top three contenders, only Komodo has attended recently.
Team K...does like it's paper titles.

I've said that...it stirs up strong emotions, but seriously, it's either a nice vacation or a really good chance to tag 'World Champion' to the product - it is a commercial undertaking afterall.

It's kind of like a World Championship where the likes of Carlsen, Caruana, Vachier-Lagrave and such do not show up while others like Shankland, Marin and Hillarp Persson show up...Shankland wins and gets crowned "World Champion". It's fair (in a weird way) but a joke.
chrisw wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:02 am
chessmobile wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:16 am
FIDE and WCCC have a cosy relationship, I’m all for WCCC but to claim the title of World Champion engine seems a bit misleading to the average punter. When most people hear of World Champion in any endeavour they assume that somehow that is the best in the world. FIDE should just stick with Human chess and the WCCC organisers should look for some other self promotion and save themselves paying FIDE for the pleasure.
They certainly don’t have a “good relationship”. Read the FIDE Ethics committee report on the WCCC organisers.

viewtopic.php?t=53132&start=160

viewtopic.php?t=53132&start=160 (why dont strong engines enter WCCC)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... -rhiPLnbHg (who entered Leela in WCCC)

All that bad history floods back again into this current TCEC vs WCCC issue...As I remember (The debates were everywhere then) Rybka was banned(stripped) because of the claim is was using Fruit code...that would lead to Stockfish declines to enter because of the argument it was a Fruit clone' (fruit code) Leela0 (LC0) wanted to enter but then pulled back at some point because they used some Stockfish code somewhere.Ditto for Thinker and Loop (& Houdini). A very complicated (and Sad state of Affairs Indeed) :D :) :wink:
This has always been the case in Fide or Fide and the WCCC or the PCA..... When you get chess players together, and everyone thinks they are the smartest person in the room. This is to be expected. :lol:
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

mjlef
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Re: WCCC vs TCEC Chess The History..THe Feuds

Post by mjlef » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:32 am

supersharp77 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:57 pm
leavenfish wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:18 am
IanO wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:17 pm
Of the top three contenders, only Komodo has attended recently.
Team K...does like it's paper titles.

I've said that...it stirs up strong emotions, but seriously, it's either a nice vacation or a really good chance to tag 'World Champion' to the product - it is a commercial undertaking afterall.

It's kind of like a World Championship where the likes of Carlsen, Caruana, Vachier-Lagrave and such do not show up while others like Shankland, Marin and Hillarp Persson show up...Shankland wins and gets crowned "World Champion". It's fair (in a weird way) but a joke.
chrisw wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:02 am
chessmobile wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:16 am
FIDE and WCCC have a cosy relationship, I’m all for WCCC but to claim the title of World Champion engine seems a bit misleading to the average punter. When most people hear of World Champion in any endeavour they assume that somehow that is the best in the world. FIDE should just stick with Human chess and the WCCC organisers should look for some other self promotion and save themselves paying FIDE for the pleasure.
They certainly don’t have a “good relationship”. Read the FIDE Ethics committee report on the WCCC organisers.

viewtopic.php?t=53132&start=160

viewtopic.php?t=53132&start=160 (why dont strong engines enter WCCC)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... -rhiPLnbHg (who entered Leela in WCCC)

All that bad history floods back again into this current TCEC vs WCCC issue...As I remember (The debates were everywhere then) Rybka was banned(stripped) because of the claim is was using Fruit code...that would lead to Stockfish declines to enter because of the argument it was a Fruit clone' (fruit code) Leela0 (LC0) wanted to enter but then pulled back at some point because they used some Stockfish code somewhere.Ditto for Thinker and Loop (& Houdini). A very complicated (and Sad state of Affairs Indeed) :D :) :wink:
The rules do not say programs cannot use parts of other programs. They state this must be revealed. I assume the tournament Director would look at what was rused, if there was any conflict with another entry, and if permission was given to use the code. I think a cluster based program entered on year using code from another program, with permission. I suspect in the Leela case, if Leel entered it probably would have been approved if the Stockfish programmers agreed. I think they used board and move gen stuff only.

bob
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Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: WCCC vs TCEC Chess Engine Competitions..

Post by bob » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:24 am

I would like to add something here, since "some" are trying to keep various types of "bitterness" alive and well.

Computer chess went through three really distinct phases.

Phase 1 started in 1970 and continued into the early 90's, where we had annual ACM computer chess tournaments (and every three years a WCCC event). These were "in person" events where the programmers showed up with either a computer or a terminal to access their remote machine. They were about the tournament, AND the paper presentations from the authors. This was what I would call "the fun times" of computer chess. This was the "run whatcha brung" and included everything from $50m Crays to basic microprocessor systems to custom designed chess hardware including Belle, HiTech, Deep Thought, and even a few not-so-custom things like ChessMachine Schroeder and such. Clusters - welcome. Supercomputers - welcome. Z80's - welcome. Etc.

Phase 2 started in the middle 90's after the annual ACM events ended (last was 1994). At that point we were organizing online events using the original computer chess club (which morphed into the Internet Computer Chess [ICC] most of used for many years (no relationship to the current computer chess club message board). These events were more fun, because they could have more rounds, required ZERO travel/expenses, but we lost the "meetings" and "papers" part of the old ACM era. Yes, we had channel 64 discussions, but while those were often interesting and useful, they were not quite the same. There was much less exotic hardware used with one notable exception that clusters were working their way into the mix. They are really "poor man's supercomputers" at some level, but there was very little additional effort expended in custom hardware design once deep thought put away Kasparov.

Phase 3 is where TCEC currently is. Here NO programmers are involved in operating for the games or anything. NO limits on what programs are allowed (near 100% clones are apparently OK) and such. Obviously, TCEC is "the lowest common denominator" from a hardware perspective. They have seen fit to add some GPU hardware, but everyone gets the same basic hardware, whether they can use it all or not.

As we have progressed, the programmers were slowly fading away from the competition. Just a matter of technology changing the way things happen. I won't begin to say things are worse (or better) than they were 20 and 40 years ago. But they are most definitely different.

I will close with a short story to show how things have changed. When I won my first WCCC (1983) we used a dual-cpu Cray machine. It took a LOT of effort to use two processors in a parallel search. The next year we had 4 processors. When the 1986 WCCC event came along, and we won our 2nd consecutive title, we were running on an 8-cpu Cray YMP. People used to talk about how much time I wasted working on the parallel part of the search rather than the alpha/beta part of the search (and I actually did a LOT of work on both parts). Their complaint was "who cares? that hardware is too expensive and will never become "main stream"". After the 1994 ACM event in Cape May, I decided to do a complete re-write of Cray Blitz. Converting from Fortran to C, but more importantly converting from a vector-based super computer to a micro-computer (initially the Intel Pentium, and then the pentium pro). But interestingly, our local computer store dragged a new dual-cpu pentium II box out to my office (most of the employees there had taken classes under me at UAB). So, a brief detour to make Crafty a parallel search program. I remember comments on ICC at the time, "Wow, nice NPS, but who cares? that will never become main stream..." I gave my usual "never is a really long time..." A few years later, when the dual/quad CPU machines were becoming common, the next comment I heard was "who cares about these multiple CPU micro-computers? The future is the hand-held cell phone market and they will never be multiple CPU versions of those, they don't need the power." Need I mention how long "never" is. :) So what I was doing in 1983 is STILL being done today (parallel search). If we had been "uniform platform" in the 80's, what a different world computer chess would be today.

The ACM events have become pretty much irrelevant, NOT because of the Rybka controversy. NOT because of the ACM leadership. But because of the evolution of world-wide computing. Makes no sense to travel and take two weeks, spend thousands of dollars on travel, hotels and food, when you can compete from your recliner in your living room, and not miss a single day of work.

THAT is what has happened to computer chess over the years. I competed in them from 1976 until 1994 when the last ACM event was held. I played (using an operator) in a few WMCCC events but they were just not the same thing. Technology has changed things. The ACM event simply got passed up by technology and is but a shadow of the old events. Sad, but then many things have changed in computing. Most always for the better.

Way past time to get off the old anti-ACM bandwagon, the old anti-anti-Rybka bandwagon, and move on. What has happened is over, and can't be undone. Time to grow up and move on.

As a last point, many STILL complain about various ACM tournament rules. What most don't understand was that the rules were NOT just handed down from on high. We the programmers wrote and rewrote the rules many times trying to address issues we saw (cloning attempts more than once, stolen hardware/software more than once, etc.) Those events were driven by the programmers, for the programmers. Not for the spectators. Not for the computer chess fans. Not for the sponsors. For the programmers. The CCC online tournaments were run exactly the same way, with the programmers creating the rules. Now, we are at a point where the programmers have little input other than to say "you can't enter my program." Which way is best? Jury is still out. I STILL think of the old days of computer chess as being the most memorable. My wife and I are fixing to take a month-long trip in our RV up into New England. Plan on stopping in Washington DC for a few days and plan on taking her to the Smithsonian to show here the 1983 version of Belle we beat in New York to win the WCCC that year (Ken donated it to the Smithsonian as the first official electronic chess master (USCF) many years ago). To those of us that participated, those were special days that will not be forgotten until we return to room temperature...

Lots of old quotes are around, but the one I remember best was from somewhere in the early 1980's. Monty Newborn was speaking at one of our panel discussions we had, and made the statement, "15 years ago, grandmasters came to our computer chess tournaments to laugh. Today they come to watch. It won't be that long before they come to _learn_. We are there.

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Rebel
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Re: WCCC vs TCEC Chess Engine Competitions..

Post by Rebel » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:43 am

bob wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:24 am
Way past time to get off the old anti-ACM bandwagon,
Way past time to get off the old ICGA bandwagon also unless they reinvent themselves.
Everybody is unique, except me.

MikeB
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Re: WCCC vs TCEC Chess Engine Competitions..

Post by MikeB » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:07 am

Rebel wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:43 am
bob wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:24 am
Way past time to get off the old anti-ACM bandwagon,
Way past time to get off the old ICGA bandwagon also unless they reinvent themselves.
Wow - that was uncalled for. It seems like you are the ONE who is keeping it going. let it go ....

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Rebel
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Re: WCCC vs TCEC Chess Engine Competitions..

Post by Rebel » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:20 am

MikeB wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:07 am
Rebel wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:43 am
bob wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:24 am
Way past time to get off the old anti-ACM bandwagon,
Way past time to get off the old ICGA bandwagon also unless they reinvent themselves.
Wow - that was uncalled for. It seems like you are the ONE who is keeping it going. let it go ....
A new board would be a good start.

Change is the law of life.
-- John F. Kennedy
Everybody is unique, except me.

Dann Corbit
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Re: WCCC vs TCEC Chess Engine Competitions..

Post by Dann Corbit » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:26 am

It is true that Rybka was "chock full" of fruit ideas. It even said so in the release notes.
There were lits of clones before, and they received small sensible punishments, even though the cloning aspect was FAR more outrageous than Rybka.
It was the absurd, WAY over the top punishment that forever killed the wmccc in my eyes.

Personally, I would like to see everyone apologize.
I will start.
"I am sorry to carry a grudge so long. I am sorry computer chess was severely injured. I am sorry this wound has never healed. I am sorry that I cannot seem to let it go. I am sorry to see so many intelligent, caring, passionate people at each others throats. I wish I could fix it, but I have no idea how to even get started."
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

MikeB
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Re: WCCC vs TCEC Chess Engine Competitions..

Post by MikeB » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:37 am

Rebel wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:20 am
MikeB wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:07 am
Rebel wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:43 am
bob wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:24 am
Way past time to get off the old anti-ACM bandwagon,
Way past time to get off the old ICGA bandwagon also unless they reinvent themselves.
Wow - that was uncalled for. It seems like you are the ONE who is keeping it going. let it go ....
A new board would be a good start.

Change is the law of life.
-- John F. Kennedy
By no means , was the decision made taken lightly, they knew before hand the decision would be unpopular, but it is my opinion when one looks at all the evidence in its totality, the rules that were in place, the code that was found, the finding was correct. At this point in time, we all should moved way off this topic. In my opinion it was not a deliberate action to circumventive the rules, it was simply a total lack of judgment in entering in the tournament in the first place, Vas has paid the penalty more than he should have in my opinion, in part because people like yourself keeping bringing this up. I'm sure Vas is thinking , "Ed, please, let this go". The ICGA was 100% correct in determining that Vas had plagiarized both Crafty and Fruit. Simple as that , case over and for anyone to let anyone , bully anyone , way after the fact is just wrong. So Ed, you always like to get in the last word - so go for it , get in your last word in , but I can almost guarantee it will not be your last word, because you are now taking pride in being a bully. Bob is now retire, enjoying the fruits of labor, please just let him retire in peace. There is nothing than worse than the wrath of of a madman and I can be madman once provoked. If Vas really believed was wronged, he could have sued for demotion of character, that's what a normal person would have done in this situation if they were truly wronged. He chose not to , that in itself is telling. And I like Vas and I think its great he's working for Chessbase and he has paid his dues, he has redeemed himself and he has earned the right to be forgiven by all in the chess community. But you, continue to go after Bob , when Bob presented the evidence correctly as he was asked to , is just totally wrong and I can no longer be quiet about this I am calling you out on this issue. You, a fellow Christian , who renamed his engine Pro Deo, "For God", but you are no way acting like anyone that is "Pro Deo" and I urge to to reflect upon your animosity towards Bob and see if you can find peace with yourself and with Bob. I certainly hope so and I will pray for you. Amen, peace be with you.

Your brother in Christ and in Dutch DNA - 23 and me reported that I have ~20% of of Dutch DNA ;>)

Things are not always right because they are hard, but if they are right one must not mind if they are also hard.
-- Winston Churchill
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