A little more B30 Sicilian

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Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4096
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

A little more B30 Sicilian

Post by Eelco de Groot » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:33 am

In relation to Ed's post, Stockfish really does not think much of standard opening theory here. 3. d4 gets close to a negative eval, even when using no contempt in UCI options.




Engine: Kaissa IV NoContempt (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

29 3:13 +0.40 3.c3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.d4 d6 6.dxc5 dxc5
7.Bb5 Bf5 8.Nh4 Be6 9.Bxc6+ bxc6
10.O-O Nb6 11.Qc2 g6 12.Bf4 Nd5
13.Rd1 Qc7 14.Bg3 Bh6 15.Nd2 O-O
16.Ne4 (272.200.122) 1407

29 3:13 +0.23 3.Bb5 e6 4.O-O Nge7 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Qb6
7.Nxc6 bxc6 8.Be2 Ng6 9.c4 Be7
10.Nc3 O-O 11.Rb1 Qc7 12.g3 d6 13.h4 Rd8
14.Be3 e5 15.h5 Nf8 16.h6 (272.200.122) 1407

29 3:13 +0.18 3.Nc3 d6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 e5 6.Nb3 Nf6
7.Be3 Ng4 8.Bc4 Nxe3 9.fxe3 Be7
10.Qe2 O-O 11.O-O-O a6 12.Rhf1 Bd7
13.Qf3 Kh8 14.Qh5 g6 15.Qe2 Kg8
16.Kb1 (272.200.122) 1407

29 3:13 +0.09 3.h3 d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Be2 g6 6.d4 cxd4
7.Nxd4 Bg7 8.Nf3 O-O 9.Bg5 h6 10.Be3 Be6
11.O-O d5 12.exd5 Nxd5 13.Nxd5 Bxd5
14.c3 g5 15.h4 gxh4 16.Nxh4 (272.200.122) 1407

29 3:13 +0.08 3.b3 e6 4.Bb2 d5 5.Bb5 Nf6 6.e5 Nd7
7.Bxc6 bxc6 8.d3 a5 9.a4 Rb8 10.Nbd2 Be7
11.O-O Qc7 12.c4 O-O 13.Re1 Ba6
14.Qc2 Rfd8 15.g3 Kh8 16.Kh1 (272.200.122) 1407

29 3:13 +0.02 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 5.Nb5 d6 6.N1c3 a6
7.Na3 b5 8.Nd5 Nf6 9.Bd3 Be7
10.Nxf6+ Bxf6 11.O-O O-O 12.c3 Be6
13.Nc2 Ne7 14.a4 Qd7 15.axb5 axb5
16.Rxa8 (272.200.122) 1407

29 3:13 0.00 3.Bc4 e6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bb5 Qc7 6.d3 d6
7.Bxc6+ Qxc6 8.O-O h6 9.a4 Be7
10.Bf4 Nh5 11.Be3 Nf6 12.e5 (272.200.122) 1407

29 3:13 0.00 3.a3 Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Bg7
7.Nf3 d6 8.Be2 O-O 9.O-O Be6 10.Ng5 Bd7
11.h3 Rc8 12.Nf3 Be6 13.Ng5 (272.200.122) 1407

29 3:13 -0.13 3.Be2 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.d4 d5 6.exd5 exd5
7.O-O Be6 8.Bg5 h6 9.Bxf6 Qxf6
10.dxc5 Rd8 11.Na4 Be7 12.Bb5 Bg4
13.h3 Bh5 14.c3 O-O 15.Re1 Rfe8
16.b4 (272.200.122) 1407

This is just the latest Stock from GitHub with a few minor changes so that ttPV nodes are not reduced so much by LMR. Stockfish does that but it only makes the reduction two ply less which is not much when going deeper. I just reduce to half LMR for PV nodes (and compensate with more LMR when in other nodes, I have to add). in Multi PV, there are more PV nodes (or ex PV nodes ) so it should pay off more. But of course this is not going to give Stockfish a positional evaluation. 3. c3 {!} is the opening of the future in B30.

After the more standard 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 {diagram below}
the eval was +0.19 for White, with no contempt either side. After the analysis of this position deeper in the line I switched back to the original pos from Ed and 3. d4 for a while was not in the top eight moves..



Engine: Kaissa IV NoContempt (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

40 109:10 +0.19 5...e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Bg5 a6 8.Na3 b5
9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nd5 f5 11.Bd3 Be6
12.O-O Bxd5 13.exd5 Ne7 14.Nxb5 Bg7
15.Nc3 e4 16.Bc4 Ng6 17.Qh5 Qf6
18.Ne2 O-O (9.352.572.171) 1427

40 109:10 +0.23 5...e6 6.Bf4 d6 7.Ndb5 e5 8.Bg5 a6
9.Na3 b5 10.Bxf6 gxf6 11.Nd5 f5
12.Bd3 Be6 13.O-O Bxd5 14.exd5 Ne7
15.Nxb5 Bg7 16.Nc3 e4 17.Bc4 Ng6
18.Qh5 Qh4 (9.352.572.171) 1427

40 109:10 +0.26 5...d6 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Ng4 8.Bc4 Nxe3
9.fxe3 Be7 10.Rf1 O-O 11.Qe2 Bg5
12.O-O-O a6 13.a4 Nd4 14.Nxd4 exd4
15.Rxd4 Bf6 16.Rdd1 Be5 17.Rf2 b5
18.Bd5 Ra7 (9.352.572.171) 1427

40 109:10 +0.57 5...h5 6.Bg5 a6 7.Be2 g6 8.Bxf6 exf6
9.f4 Bb4 10.Qd2 Qb6 11.a3 Qxd4
12.axb4 Qxd2+ 13.Kxd2 Nxb4 14.Ra4 Nc6
15.b4 Nd4 16.Bd3 Rb8 17.Nd5 d6
18.Ke3 Nc6 (9.352.572.171) 1427

40 109:10 +0.62 5...h6 6.Nxc6 dxc6 7.Qxd8+ Kxd8
8.Bf4 Be6 9.Rd1+ Nd7 10.h4 g6 11.Ne2 h5
12.f3 Ke8 13.b3 Bh6 14.Bxh6 Rxh6
15.Nf4 Nc5 16.Kf2 a5 17.Be2 Bd7
18.Nd3 Nxd3+ (9.352.572.171) 1427

40 109:10 +0.64 5...Rb8 6.Bg5 Qa5 7.Bxf6 gxf6 8.Nb3 Qg5
9.g3 f5 10.f4 Qg6 11.exf5 Qxf5
12.Qd2 Bg7 13.O-O-O d6 14.Kb1 Qf6
15.h3 h5 16.Bd3 Kf8 17.Be4 Bd7
18.Nc5 Bf5 (9.352.572.171) 1427

40 109:10 +0.67 5...g6 6.Nxc6 dxc6 7.Qxd8+ Kxd8
8.Bc4 Ke8 9.a4 Nd7 10.Be3 h5 11.Ke2 Ne5
12.Bb3 Ng4 13.Bd2 b6 14.f3 Ba6+
15.Ke1 Ne5 16.a5 Bh6 17.Bxh6 Rxh6
18.f4 Nd7 (9.352.572.171) 1427

40 109:10 +0.76 5...a6 6.Nxc6 dxc6 7.Qxd8+ Kxd8
8.Bf4 Be6 9.a4 Ke8 10.a5 h5 11.Be2 g6
12.O-O Bh6 13.Bxh6 Rxh6 14.h4 Rh8
15.Rfd1 Rd8 16.f3 Nd7 17.Kf2 f6
18.Rd2 Ne5 (9.352.572.171) 1427
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4096
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: A little more B30 Sicilian

Post by Eelco de Groot » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:04 am

At depth 42 and the situation has not really changed. So even with depth to compensate for any gaps there might be in the positional evaluation of openings, still Stock does not like 3. d4 It is barely in seventh place again. No, eighth now, 3. a3 is now also better :wink: I do not like 3. Bb5 too much myself as maybe a bit aggressive but it was consistently at top. 3. c3 not far behind.



Engine: Kaissa IV NoContempt (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

42 223:55 +0.23 3.Bb5 g6 4.O-O Bg7 5.Re1 Nf6 6.c3 O-O
7.h3 e5 8.d3 d6 9.a4 Be6 10.Ng5 Bd7
11.Bc4 Na5 12.Ba2 a6 13.Bd2 Nh5
14.Nf3 Nf4 15.Bxf4 exf4 16.Nbd2 (19.456.792.183) 1448

42 223:55 +0.13 3.Nc3 g6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6
7.f4 d6 8.Be2 O-O 9.O-O Bd7 10.Qd3 a6
11.h3 b5 12.a3 Rc8 13.Rad1 Na5 14.e5 Ne8
15.Qd2 dxe5 16.fxe5 (19.456.792.183) 1448

42 223:55 +0.12 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.d4 e6 6.Bd3 Bd7
7.dxc5 Ne5 8.Nxe5 Qxe5+ 9.Qe2 Qxe2+
10.Bxe2 Bxc5 11.Nd2 Bc6 12.O-O a5
13.Rd1 Nf6 14.Nf3 Ke7 15.Nd4 Bxd4
16.Rxd4 (19.456.792.183) 1448

42 223:55 +0.06 3.a3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e5 5.Bb5 d6 6.d3 a6
7.Bc4 b5 8.Bb3 Be7 9.O-O O-O 10.Nd5 Be6
11.Nxf6+ Bxf6 12.Bxe6 fxe6 13.c3 Be7
14.b4 d5 15.Qe2 d4 16.cxd4 (19.456.792.183) 1448

42 223:55 +0.04 3.g3 Nf6 4.Nc3 d6 5.Bg2 g6 6.O-O Bg7
7.d3 Be6 8.h3 O-O 9.Re1 Bd7 10.e5 dxe5
11.Nxe5 Rc8 12.Nxd7 Qxd7 13.a4 Rfd8
14.a5 Nd4 15.Bg5 Ne6 16.Bd2 (19.456.792.183) 1448

42 223:55 0.00 3.h3 e6 4.Nc3 a6 5.g3 Be7 6.Bg2 Qc7
7.O-O Nf6 8.d4 cxd4 9.Nxd4 O-O
10.Be3 d6 11.f4 h6 12.Qd2 Nxd4
13.Qxd4 Nd7 14.a4 b6 15.Rad1 Bb7
16.Qd3 (19.456.792.183) 1448

42 223:55 0.00 3.b3 d6 4.Bb5 e5 5.Bc4 a6 6.a4 Be7
7.Nc3 Nf6 8.d3 O-O 9.O-O Bd7 10.h3 Rb8
11.Bd2 h6 12.Re1 Be6 13.Nh2 Nd7
14.Nf3 (19.456.792.183) 1448

42 223:55 0.00 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 5.Nb5 d6 6.N1c3 Nf6
7.Bg5 a6 8.Na3 b5 9.Nd5 Be7 10.Bxf6 Bxf6
11.c3 Rb8 12.Nc2 Bg5 13.g3 O-O
14.Bg2 a5 15.O-O Ne7 16.Nce3 (19.456.792.183) 1448

42 223:55 0.00 3.Be2 Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Bg7
7.Be3 d5 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.e5 Nd7 10.f4 f6
11.exf6 Nxf6 12.Bd4 O-O 13.O-O Qd6
14.Be5 Qb4 15.a3 Qc5+ 16.Bd4 (19.456.792.183) 1448

Code: Select all

 38	73:28 	+0.26 	3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.d4 Nf6 6.dxc5 Qxc5 7.Na3 e5 8.Nc4 Qe7 9.Bg5 Qc7 10.Bh4 Bc5 11.Be2 O-O 12.O-O Bf5 13.b4 Be7 14.b5 Na5 15.Ne3 Rad8 16.Qa4 (6.187.989.981) 1403
 38	73:28 	+0.25 	3.Bb5 e6 4.O-O Nge7 5.Ba4 a6 6.c4 Ng6 7.d4 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Qc7 9.Be3 Be7 10.Nc3 O-O 11.Rc1 Rd8 12.Bb3 Rb8 13.f4 Bc5 14.Kh1 b6 15.Nc2 Bb7 16.Qg4 (6.187.989.981) 1403
 38	73:28 	+0.21 	3.h3 d6 4.Bb5 e6 5.O-O Nge7 6.d4 cxd4 7.Nxd4 Bd7 8.Be3 Nxd4 9.Bxd7+ Qxd7 10.Bxd4 d5 11.Nc3 dxe4 12.Nxe4 Nf5 13.Bc3 Qc6 14.Qg4 Be7 15.Rad1 h5 16.Qe2 (6.187.989.981) 1403
 38	73:28 	+0.14 	3.Be2 Nf6 4.Nc3 d6 5.O-O e6 6.d4 cxd4 7.Nxd4 Be7 8.h3 O-O 9.Be3 e5 10.Nb3 Be6 11.Re1 d5 12.exd5 Nxd5 13.Nxd5 Bxd5 14.Nc5 Nd4 15.Bxd4 exd4 16.Nd3 (6.187.989.981) 1403
 38	73:28 	+0.08 	3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 5.Nb5 d6 6.N1c3 Nf6 7.Bg5 a6 8.Bxf6 gxf6 9.Na3 b5 10.Nd5 f5 11.Bd3 Be6 12.O-O Bxd5 13.exd5 Ne7 14.Nxb5 Bg7 15.Nc3 e4 16.Bc4 (6.187.989.981) 1403
 38	73:28 	+0.07 	3.Nc3 g6 4.Bb5 Bg7 5.O-O d6 6.Re1 Bd7 7.h3 Nf6 8.Bxc6 Bxc6 9.e5 dxe5 10.Nxe5 Rc8 11.d3 O-O 12.Nxc6 Rxc6 13.Bf4 e6 14.Be5 Nd5 15.a3 Bxe5 16.Rxe5 (6.187.989.981) 1403
 38	73:28 	+0.01 	3.Bd3 e6 4.O-O g5 5.Bb5 g4 6.Ne1 h5 7.c3 d5 8.d3 Bg7 9.Qe2 Nge7 10.f3 Qc7 11.Qf2 f5 12.Qxc5 O-O 13.exd5 Nxd5 14.f4 a6 15.Bxc6 Bd7 16.c4 (6.187.989.981) 1403
 38	73:28 	 0.00 	3.b3 d6 4.Bb5 e5 5.Bc4 Be7 6.Nc3 Bd7 7.O-O a6 8.a4 Nf6 9.d3 O-O 10.Bg5 Rb8 11.h3 Nb4 12.a5 Be6 13.Bxf6 Bxf6 14.Nd2 Nc6 15.Nd5 Bg5 16.Ne3 (6.187.989.981) 1403
 38	73:28 	-0.08 	3.a4 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 e5 7.Nf3 Bc5 8.Bc4 h6 9.O-O d6 10.Re1 O-O 11.Nd5 Nxd5 12.Bxd5 Ne7 13.Be3 Bxe3 14.Rxe3 Nxd5 15.Qxd5 Be6 16.Qd2 (6.187.989.981) 1403
________________________________________________

 39	104:14 	+0.36 	3.Bb5 e6 4.O-O Nge7 5.Ba4 a6 6.c3 b5 7.Bc2 d5 8.d4 cxd4 9.a4 b4 10.cxd4 dxe4 11.Bxe4 Nd5 12.Nbd2 Bb7 13.Nc4 Be7 14.Nfe5 Rc8 15.Nxc6 Rxc6 16.Ne5 (8.785.803.355) 1404
 39	104:14 	+0.16 	3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 5.Nb5 d6 6.N1c3 Nf6 7.Bg5 a6 8.Na3 b5 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nd5 f5 11.Bd3 Be6 12.O-O Bxd5 13.exd5 Ne7 14.Nxb5 Bg7 15.Nc3 e4 16.Bc4 (8.785.803.355) 1404
 39	104:14 	+0.14 	3.Nc3 g6 4.Bb5 Bg7 5.O-O d6 6.Re1 Bd7 7.Bxc6 Bxc6 8.Rb1 Nf6 9.d4 cxd4 10.Nxd4 O-O 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Na4 Nd7 13.b3 Nb6 14.Nb2 a5 15.Be3 c5 16.c4 (8.785.803.355) 1404
 39	104:14 	+0.11 	3.Be2 g6 4.O-O Bg7 5.Re1 d6 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.c3 a6 8.Bxc6 Bxc6 9.d4 cxd4 10.cxd4 Nf6 11.d5 Bd7 12.e5 dxe5 13.Nxe5 O-O 14.Nc3 Bc8 15.Qb3 Ne8 16.Bg5 (8.785.803.355) 1404
 39	104:14 	+0.08 	3.h3 e6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bb5 Qc7 6.O-O d6 7.d3 Be7 8.a4 O-O 9.Bf4 b6 10.Bxc6 Qxc6 11.e5 Nd7 12.exd6 Bxd6 13.Bxd6 Qxd6 14.Re1 Bb7 15.a5 Rfe8 16.Qe2 (8.785.803.355) 1404
 39	104:14 	+0.07 	3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.d4 Nf6 6.dxc5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Bg4 8.h3 Bxf3+ 9.gxf3 e6 10.Be3 Nd5 11.Bb5 Nxe3+ 12.fxe3 O-O-O+ 13.Ke2 Bxc5 14.Bxc6 bxc6 15.e4 Kc7 16.Nd2 (8.785.803.355) 1404
 39	104:14 	 0.00 	3.b3 d6 4.Bb5 e5 5.Bc4 Be7 6.Nc3 Bd7 7.O-O Nf6 8.a4 O-O 9.h3 a6 10.d3 Rb8 11.Bd2 h6 12.Re1 Nd4 13.a5 Be6 14.Na4 Nd7 15.Nc3 (8.785.803.355) 1404
 39	104:14 	-0.04 	3.a3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.d4 d5 6.exd5 Nxd5 7.Ne2 Nf6 8.Be3 Ng4 9.dxc5 Qxd1+ 10.Rxd1 Nxe3 11.fxe3 Bxc5 12.Kf2 Bd7 13.Nc3 Be7 14.Be2 O-O-O 15.h4 a6 16.b4 (8.785.803.355) 1404
 38	104:14 	+0.01 	3.Bd3 e6 (8.785.803.355) 1404
_________________________________________________

 40	131:27 	+0.24 	3.Bb5 g6 4.O-O Bg7 5.Re1 Nf6 6.c3 O-O 7.h3 e5 8.d3 d6 9.Be3 h6 10.a4 Be6 11.Nbd2 Rb8 12.Qc2 a6 13.Bc4 Bd7 14.Nf1 b5 15.axb5 axb5 16.Ba2 (11.096.395.514) 1406
 40	131:27 	+0.20 	3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.d4 Nf6 6.dxc5 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Bg4 8.Nbd2 e6 9.Nb3 a5 10.Bb5 a4 11.Nbd4 O-O-O 12.Bxc6 bxc6 13.Ke2 Kb7 14.h3 Bxf3+ 15.Nxf3 Bxc5 16.Bg5 (11.096.395.514) 1406
 40	131:27 	+0.12 	3.h3 e6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bb5 Qc7 6.O-O Nd4 7.Bd3 Nxf3+ 8.Qxf3 a6 9.b3 Bd6 10.Bb2 Be5 11.Qe2 O-O 12.a4 Re8 13.Nd1 Bxb2 14.Nxb2 e5 15.Bc4 b6 16.Nd1 (11.096.395.514) 1406
 40	131:27 	+0.08 	3.Nc3 g6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.f4 d6 8.Be2 Bd7 9.Nb3 O-O 10.O-O Rc8 11.a3 a6 12.h3 Be6 13.Qd2 Na5 14.Nxa5 Qxa5 15.Bd3 Qc7 16.f5 (11.096.395.514) 1406
 40	131:27 	+0.06 	3.b3 d6 4.Bb5 e5 5.Bc4 a6 6.a4 Be7 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.d3 Nd4 9.h3 O-O 10.O-O Rb8 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bd2 Be6 13.Kh2 Nc6 14.Rb1 Kh7 15.Re1 Nd4 16.Nd5 (11.096.395.514) 1406
 40	131:27 	 0.00 	3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 5.Nb5 d6 6.N1c3 Nf6 7.Bg5 a6 8.Bxf6 gxf6 9.Na3 b5 10.Nd5 f5 11.Bd3 Be6 12.O-O Bg7 13.Qh5 f4 14.c3 Ne7 15.Nc2 Nxd5 16.exd5 (11.096.395.514) 1406
 40	131:27 	 0.00 	3.Be2 g6 4.O-O Bg7 5.Re1 Nf6 6.Bb5 O-O 7.Bxc6 bxc6 8.d3 Rb8 9.Nbd2 d6 10.Nc4 Be6 11.Qe2 Bxc4 12.dxc4 Nd7 13.Rb1 Qa5 14.a3 Qc7 15.b3 Rfd8 16.Bd2 (11.096.395.514) 1406
 40	131:27 	-0.06 	3.a3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e5 5.Bb5 d6 6.O-O Be7 7.d3 a6 8.Bc4 b5 9.Bb3 O-O 10.Nd5 Rb8 11.Re1 Nxd5 12.Bxd5 Nd4 13.Nxd4 cxd4 14.c3 dxc3 15.bxc3 Be6 16.Bd2 (11.096.395.514) 1406
 40	131:27 	-0.07 	3.g3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bg2 d5 6.exd5 exd5 7.d4 Bg4 8.h3 cxd4 9.hxg4 dxc3 10.bxc3 Bc5 11.Nd4 Qa5 12.Bd2 O-O 13.g5 Rfe8+ 14.Kf1 Ne4 15.Bxe4 dxe4 16.Nb3 (11.096.395.514) 1406
_______________________________________________

 41	181:19 	+0.26 	3.Bb5 g6 4.O-O Bg7 5.Re1 Nf6 6.c3 O-O 7.h3 e5 8.d3 d6 9.a4 Be6 10.Ng5 Bd7 11.Bc4 Na5 12.Ba2 a6 13.Bd2 h6 14.Nf3 b5 15.b4 cxb4 16.cxb4 (15.477.270.185) 1422
 41	181:19 	+0.14 	3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 5.Nb5 d6 6.N1c3 Nf6 7.Bg5 a6 8.Bxf6 gxf6 9.Na3 b5 10.Nd5 f5 11.Bd3 Be6 12.O-O Bxd5 13.exd5 Ne7 14.Nxb5 Bg7 15.Nc3 e4 16.Bc4 (15.477.270.185) 1422
 41	181:19 	+0.13 	3.h3 e6 4.Nc3 a6 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Qc7 7.Nxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3 d5 9.O-O Bd6 10.Re1 Ne7 11.Qh5 e5 12.Bg5 d4 13.Na4 Ng6 14.b3 O-O 15.c3 Be6 16.Bd2 (15.477.270.185) 1422
 41	181:19 	+0.12 	3.Nc3 g6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.f4 d6 8.Be2 O-O 9.O-O Bd7 10.Qd3 a6 11.h3 b5 12.a3 Rc8 13.Rad1 Na5 14.e5 Ne8 15.Qd2 dxe5 16.fxe5 (15.477.270.185) 1422
 41	181:19 	+0.11 	3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.d4 Nf6 6.Be2 cxd4 7.cxd4 e6 8.Nc3 Qa5 9.a3 Bd6 10.O-O O-O 11.Bd2 Qd8 12.Bb5 Bd7 13.Re1 Rc8 14.Bg5 Be7 15.Bd3 h6 16.Bf4 (15.477.270.185) 1422
 41	181:19 	+0.03 	3.b3 d6 4.Bb5 e5 5.Bc4 a6 6.a4 Be7 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.d3 Nd4 9.h3 O-O 10.O-O Rb8 11.Bd2 Be6 12.a5 h6 13.Re1 Kh8 14.Nh2 Nd7 15.Nd5 Bg5 16.c3 (15.477.270.185) 1422
 41	181:19 	 0.00 	3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.O-O d6 6.d3 Nf6 7.Nc3 O-O 8.Re1 h6 9.Bd2 Be6 10.Ne2 Bd7 11.a3 Re8 12.b4 e5 13.Rb1 b6 14.b5 Nd4 15.Nfxd4 cxd4 16.c3 (15.477.270.185) 1422
 41	181:19 	 0.00 	3.Be2 Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Bg7 7.Be3 d5 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.e5 Nd7 10.f4 f6 11.exf6 Nxf6 12.Bd4 O-O 13.O-O Qd6 14.Be5 Qc5+ 15.Bd4 Qb4 16.a3 (15.477.270.185) 1422
 41	181:19 	 0.00 	3.a3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e5 5.Bb5 d6 6.O-O Be7 7.d3 a6 8.Bc4 b5 9.Bb3 O-O 10.Bg5 Be6 11.Bxf6 Bxf6 12.Nd5 a5 13.a4 b4 14.c3 Rb8 15.Bc4 Bg5 16.Re1 (15.477.270.185) 1422
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

Stephen Ham
Posts: 2409
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Eden Prairie, Minnesota
Full name: Stephen Ham

Re: A little more B30 Sicilian

Post by Stephen Ham » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:19 am

Hi Eelco,

Perhaps Stockfish's heuristics are similar to Bent Larsen's chess philosophy. He too disliked 3 d4, since it trades the central pawn for a flank pawn. While that seems excessively simplistic, the great GM stated exactly that in his autobiography/book of best games.

All the best,
Steve

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Eelco de Groot
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Location: Groningen

Re: A little more B30 Sicilian

Post by Eelco de Groot » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:56 pm

Hi Stephen! Nice to see you posting here again! I think you are probably right, something along those lines like what Bent Larsen wrote and Stockfish not seeing the extra compensation, developmentwise probably. (I was watching The Apartment, nice 1960 comedy with Jack Lemmon and Shirley MacLaine, and there is lots of dialogue where Jack says something like "Percentagewise, I mean" Favorite line: "I suppose that's how it crumbles, cookiewise". They don't make movies like that anymore, at least not often enough. I don't think I have seen it before, although the film is older than me, so maybe it was on the 'telly' very long time ago. Everything was filmed in Black and White at least this copy I saw. Maybe intentionally done by Billy Wilder?

I let the analysis continue and finally after more than ten hours, 3. d4 floated upwards again. This is at depth 49:



Engine: Kaissa IV NoContempt (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

49 972:29 +0.31 3.Bb5 e6 4.O-O Nge7 5.Ba4 a6 6.c3 d5
7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Ne5 Bd7 9.Nxc6 Bxc6
10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.Na3 Bd6 12.d3 O-O
13.Qe2 Nb6 14.Be3 Qc7 15.h3 Rad8
16.Rae1 (88.315.388.231) 1513

49 972:29 +0.27 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6
7.Bg5 a6 8.Na3 b5 9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nd5 f5
11.Bd3 Be6 12.O-O Bxd5 13.exd5 Ne7
14.c3 e4 15.Be2 Bg7 16.Nc2 (88.315.388.231) 1513

49 972:29 +0.09 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bb5 Bg7 5.O-O d6 6.d4 cxd4
7.Nxd4 Bd7 8.Be3 Nf6 9.Be2 O-O
10.Qd2 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 Bc6 12.f3 e5
13.Be3 d5 14.exd5 Nxd5 15.Nxd5 Qxd5
16.Qxd5 (88.315.388.231) 1513

49 972:29 +0.01 3.Be2 Nf6 4.Nc3 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.O-O Nc7
7.Re1 e6 8.Nb5 a6 9.Nxc7+ Qxc7 10.c3 Be7
11.d4 cxd4 12.cxd4 O-O 13.Be3 Qd6
14.Rc1 Bf6 15.Qc2 Nxd4 16.Nxd4 (88.315.388.231) 1513

49 972:29 0.00 3.c3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.Bc4 Nb6 6.Bb3 d5
7.exd6 Qxd6 8.O-O Be6 9.d4 cxd4
10.Nxd4 Nxd4 11.cxd4 Bxb3 12.axb3 e6
13.Qf3 Be7 14.Qxb7 O-O 15.Rxa7 Rxa7
16.Qxa7 (88.315.388.231) 1513

49 972:29 0.00 3.h3 Nf6 4.Nc3 d6 5.Be2 e5 6.O-O Be7
7.Re1 Be6 8.b3 O-O 9.Bc4 a6 10.a4 Rb8
11.d3 Bd7 12.Bd2 h6 13.Rf1 Be6
14.Re1 (88.315.388.231) 1513

49 972:29 0.00 3.a3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Be7
7.Nxc6 bxc6 8.e5 Nd5 9.Qg4 g6 10.Qg3 d6
11.Nxd5 exd5 12.Bh6 f6 13.Qc3 Kf7
14.Qxc6 Rb8 15.Qxd5+ Be6 16.Bc4 (88.315.388.231) 1513

49 972:29 0.00 3.b3 e6 4.Bb5 Nge7 5.O-O a6 6.Bxc6 Nxc6
7.Bb2 b5 8.d3 d6 9.Nfd2 f6 10.a4 bxa4
11.Rxa4 Be7 12.Qh5+ g6 13.Qh6 Bf8
14.Qf4 Be7 15.Qg3 (88.315.388.231) 1513

49 972:29 0.00 3.g3 Nf6 4.Nc3 g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.O-O d5
7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Re1 Nc7 9.Ne4 b6 10.c3 O-O
11.d4 cxd4 12.Nxd4 Nxd4 13.cxd4 Nd5
14.Nc3 Bb7 15.Nxd5 Bxd5 16.Bxd5 (88.315.388.231) 1513
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

Dann Corbit
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
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Re: A little more B30 Sicilian

Post by Dann Corbit » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:01 pm

Here is what I have for that position:
acd 51; acs 40500; bm Bb5; c3 "Nc3"; cce 39; ce 28; id "es-dc-neutral.0009"; pm d4 {161908} Bb5 {52849} Nc3 {25505} c3 {5909} d3 {1394} Bc4 {1257} b3 {492} g3 {442} Be2 {427} c4 {281} h3 {216} Na3 {141} b4 {119} a4 {57} a3 {39} Bd3 {37} Qe2 {15} Nd4 {8} Ng1 {8} h4 {7} e5 {4}; pv Bb5 e6 Bxc6 bxc6 b3 Ne7 Bb2 d6 e5 d5 d3 Qa5+ Nbd2 Qc7 O-O Ng6 h4 h5 g3 a5 c4 Ne7 Rc1 Nf5 Qc2 Qa7 d4 Bb7 cxd5 cxd5 dxc5 Rc8 Ba3 Be7 Rfe1 O-O Qc3 Rc6 Nd4 Nxd4 Qxd4 Rfc8 Kg2 Bxc5 Bxc5 Rxc5 Rh1 Qb6 Nf3 Qb4 Rxc5 Rxc5;
After move d4 I have this:
acd 41; acs 900; bm cxd4; c3 "cxd4"; cce -34; ce -8; id "es-dc-neutral.0833"; pm cxd4 {161730} Nxd4 {60} Qc7 {39} e6 {27} g6 {22} Nf6 {13} d6 {11} d5 {7} c4 {3} b6 {2} e5 {2} h6 {1}; pv cxd4 Nxd4 Nf6 Nc3 d6 Bg5 e6 Qd2 Be7 O-O-O Nxd4 Qxd4 O-O a3 a6 f4 b5 Bxf6 Bxf6 Qxd6 Bb7 Qxd8 Raxd8 Rxd8 Rxd8 Bd3 Bd4 Re1 Bc6 Nd1 e5 g3 Kf8 c4 Rc8 Kd2 bxc4 Bxc4 a5 Nc3 Bd7 Be2 g6 fxe5;
After move Bb5 I have this:
acd 44; acs 1768; bm e6; c3 "Nf6"; cce -50; ce 0; pm g6 {24327} e6 {14359} d6 {8794} Nf6 {2642} Qb6 {812} a6 {480} Qc7 {399} e5 {397} Na5 {376} Nd4 {165} Qa5 {49} d5 {34} b6 {19} g5 {2}; pv e6 Nc3 Nd4 Bd3 Nc6 b3 d6 Bb2 Nf6 O-O Be7 Re1 Nd7 Bb5 O-O Bxc6 bxc6 d3 Qc7 Nd2 Ba6 h3 h6 f4 Bf6 Na4 Bd4+ Bxd4 cxd4 f5 e5 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 d5 cxd5 cxd5 exd5 Nf6;
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