Leela, such a great engine (and innovation)?

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mwyoung
Posts: 1638
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 pm

Re: Leela, such a great engine (and innovation)?

Post by mwyoung » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:21 am

supersharp77 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:01 pm
mwyoung wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:34 am
supersharp77 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:37 pm
mwyoung wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:53 pm
supersharp77 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:23 pm
S.Taylor wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:11 pm
https://youtu.be/q-q01F9Mmb4
How does it play like that without knowledge?
Doesn't it look like the most knowledgable engine there is?
Don't be fooled....It's all "Smoke & Mirrors" Neural Net size is the key.... :) :wink:
If the illusion is real
Let them give you a ride
If they got thunder appeal
Let them be on your side
I propose a "Real Test" #1 LC0 with Minimal NN size vs Chess engine with Minimal opening book
Or Test #2 LC0 with Super NN size (like you are currently testing and posting bogus results) vs Chess engine with Extensive opening Book...Ex cerebellum Lets check the results......shall we? :) :wink:
Or I could test like I am testing.

Testing each engine at their best configuration.

I don't understand your irrational logic when it comes to Lc0.

I want to know what each engine is able to bring with their best configuration.

I don't care if Lc0 is using magic beans to play as good as it plays.

What most of us want to know is even with magic beans. How strong is Lc0 playing.

All you want to do is handicap Lc0 as much as possible. In the hope it will justify your irrational bias, and statements against a chess engine.

And your only issue with my testing. Is that is shows with data how irrational you are being against Lc0.
Bias against LC0? ......Hahahahah heck I've spent months setting it up downloading it and playing test games with the thing...and watching it play and overall what have I learned from watching it play? Almost nothing!! Why because it is not a 'Chess Engine' at least as far as what we have come to know what a Chess Engine Is....My optinion is that based on how it 'plays" (I use that word lightly) It's mostly a NN database.. a piece square grid and a very very simple move generator/engine its.. not playing its moves over the board but picking moves based on games already played (move grid)
The thing doesn't think...it's not really profound it does make unusual moves on occasion..It is great in Zugzwang type positions..right now LC0 is have trouble beating Bikjump in my Chess for android apk...what doe you want me to do..say its better than Stockfish or Sugar or Houdini Or Komodo? My job is not to make LC0 look GOOD or GREAT..I'm searching for the BEST Chess engines under minimal conditions..Thats It... :) :wink:
And yet it kills every engine in site.

And you keep proving my right, the more you write....
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Take on me. foes 0

mwyoung
Posts: 1638
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:00 pm

Re: Leela, such a great engine (and innovation)?

Post by mwyoung » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:31 am

Ovyron wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:26 am
mwyoung wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:34 am
I want to know what each engine is able to bring with their best configuration.
The best configuration includes a Tournament Book, say, you hire Jeroen Noomen to produce a private book for Leela that goes into positions that the engine plays best, and that will be great against whatever opponent Leela is facing, then you will see her true strength. He did it for Rebel and Rybka when they were the best, so why not Leela?

The problem with TCEC, the CCRL, and other testing groups is that they're testing with generic books, and in those, 99% of the openings played are irrelevant.

Assume for a moment that 1.d4 is actually bad and Leela struggles with it or that the Sicilian is actually bad and Leela struggles with it, yet it's being forced to play into those openings and Stockfish reigns supreme, but a Tournament book would show that Leela can kick ass with just 1.e4 and 1...e5 against 1.e4, and that all the results of the generic openings she wouldn't play are irrelevant.

This is all made up, but you should get the point that minimal books or extensive opening books are not the answer.

You don't force Magnus Carlsen to forget all the chess theory he knows at move 4 and think by himself from there. You also don't force Magnus Carlsen and his opponents to play from a generic opening position they may not have much experience in. You let them play with a "Tournament Book" that is on their head thanks to their preparation. Why aren't engines treated the same?


All the testing of Stockfish and Leela has been nothing but charades, back in my day (...2007, yeah, I'm getting old) Zappa Mexico proved to be the most superior engine, over Rybka, under these conditions, proving that all the generic testing (where Rybka was the best) was a farce.
You have more faith in Jeroen's book then I have. I would not pay anything for a his books.
And that being said. Why should I, or anyone pay for Jeroen's books. When Lc0 is already beating every engine without Jeroen's books.

And Lc0 is a free engine. And why would Lc0 programmers pay for a book.

I think you should pay for Jeroen's books. Let me know how it turns out.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Take on me. foes 0

supersharp77
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:54 am
Location: Southwest USA

Re: Leela, such a great engine (and innovation)?

Post by supersharp77 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:47 pm

mwyoung wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:53 pm
supersharp77 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:23 pm
S.Taylor wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:11 pm
https://youtu.be/q-q01F9Mmb4
How does it play like that without knowledge?
Doesn't it look like the most knowledgable engine there is?
Don't be fooled....It's all "Smoke & Mirrors" Neural Net size is the key.... :) :wink:
If the illusion is real
Let them give you a ride
If they got thunder appeal
Let them be on your side
I propose a "Real Test" #1 LC0 with Minimal NN size vs Chess engine with Minimal opening book
Or Test #2 LC0 with Super NN size (like you are currently testing and posting bogus results) vs Chess engine with Extensive opening Book...Ex cerebellum Lets check the results......shall we? :) :wink:
[/quote]

Or I could test like I am testing.

Testing each engine at their best configuration.

I don't understand your irrational logic when it comes to Lc0.

I want to know what each engine is able to bring with their best configuration.

I don't care if Lc0 is using magic beans to play as good as it plays.

What most of us want to know is even with magic beans. How strong is Lc0 playing.

All you want to do is handicap Lc0 as much as possible. In the hope it will justify your irrational bias, and statements against a chess engine.

And your only issue with my testing. Is that is shows with data how irrational you are being against Lc0.
[/quote]

Bias against LC0? ......Hahahahah heck I've spent months setting it up downloading it and playing test games with it

Bottom Line: LC0 based on what I've seen and viewed so far..is Not Strong...Is Not Smart...Is Not Great...Is Not Profound
And Is Not A CHESS ENGINE...I've Played them all my Friend From Fidelity
to Mephisto To Sugar..Houdini.. Rybka and SF Learning and Komodo 12....It's not even close...its a Scandal 8-) :|

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Ovyron
Posts: 2523
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:30 am

Re: Leela, such a great engine (and innovation)?

Post by Ovyron » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:23 am

mwyoung wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:31 am
You have more faith in Jeroen's book then I have. I would not pay anything for a his books.
It was juts an idea.

The concept stands (an ultimate chess match with a strongest book the other side doesn't know) If someone can provide a better tournament book than Jeroen, and for free, let them do it.

Also, guess I was outdated, huh? So it's Stockfish who needs the book...

My whole point is that who is the best hasn't been proven yet, and it will never happen until there's a true Chess Engine Championship match, where both sides bring the strongest hardware that they can, for both Leela and the strongest Stockfish derivative out there, and they play with a private tournament book. Or the testing groups kill the lines that the engines lose because it makes no sense they'd have played them in the first place.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

Dann Corbit
Posts: 10000
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: Leela, such a great engine (and innovation)?

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:52 am

Proof of best never comes from a championship. It takes many thousands of games to know which engine is strongest when they are close in strength. And by the time we know the answer, there is a new version anyway. A contest like tcec gives us a champion. And contests like ccrl and cegt tell us what's stronger on hardware mere mortals can afford. Both systems have great value.

IMO YMMV
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Leo
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Location: USA/Minnesota
Full name: Leo

Re: Leela, such a great engine (and innovation)?

Post by Leo » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:47 pm

How much money in USDs would I have to spend to have TCEC 15 lczero play on a computer at home?
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

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Laskos
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Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: Leela, such a great engine (and innovation)?

Post by Laskos » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:29 pm

Leo wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:47 pm
How much money in USDs would I have to spend to have TCEC 15 lczero play on a computer at home?
i5 + 2080ti + 2080 + 32GB RAM + accessories, about $2500 or so. Cheaper than you get SF to play at TCEC level. And if TCEC will keep the same conditions, Leela will demolish SF in SuFi 16.

chrisw
Posts: 2015
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:28 pm

Re: Leela, such a great engine (and innovation)?

Post by chrisw » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:14 pm

Laskos wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:29 pm
Leo wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:47 pm
How much money in USDs would I have to spend to have TCEC 15 lczero play on a computer at home?
i5 + 2080ti + 2080 + 32GB RAM + accessories, about $2500 or so. Cheaper than you get SF to play at TCEC level. And if TCEC will keep the same conditions, Leela will demolish SF in SuFi 16.
and don’t skimp on the PSU.

Leo
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:55 pm
Location: USA/Minnesota
Full name: Leo

Re: Leela, such a great engine (and innovation)?

Post by Leo » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:43 pm

supersharp77 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:37 pm
mwyoung wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:53 pm
supersharp77 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:23 pm
S.Taylor wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:11 pm
https://youtu.be/q-q01F9Mmb4
How does it play like that without knowledge?
Doesn't it look like the most knowledgable engine there is?
Don't be fooled....It's all "Smoke & Mirrors" Neural Net size is the key.... :) :wink:
If the illusion is real
Let them give you a ride
If they got thunder appeal
Let them be on your side
I propose a "Real Test" #1 LC0 with Minimal NN size vs Chess engine with Minimal opening book
Or Test #2 LC0 with Super NN size (like you are currently testing and posting bogus results) vs Chess engine with Extensive opening Book...Ex cerebellum Lets check the results......shall we? :) :wink:
I wont be convinced LCZ is better until it beats Brainfish. It could but lets see.
Advanced Micro Devices fan.

supersharp77
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:54 am
Location: Southwest USA

Re: Leela, such a great engine (and innovation)?

Post by supersharp77 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:08 pm

chrisw wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:14 pm
Laskos wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:29 pm
Leo wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:47 pm
How much money in USDs would I have to spend to have TCEC 15 lczero play on a computer at home?
i5 + 2080ti + 2080 + 32GB RAM + accessories, about $2500 or so. Cheaper than you get SF to play at TCEC level. And if TCEC will keep the same conditions, Leela will demolish SF in SuFi 16.
and don’t skimp on the PSU.
Leo wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:43 pm
I wont be convinced LCZ is better until it beats Brainfish. It could but lets see.
[/quote]
Dann Corbit wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:52 am
Proof of best never comes from a championship. It takes many thousands of games to know which engine is strongest when they are close in strength. And by the time we know the answer, there is a new version anyway. A contest like tcec gives us a champion. And contests like ccrl and cegt tell us what's stronger on hardware mere mortals can afford. Both systems have great value.

IMO YMMV
Dann Corbit Gives Us "The bottom Line" On This Issue....

My Take Is Minimal Engine/Program assistance with no "Cheating or Edges' in TCEC
Or If LC0 and these NN Programs are allowed Unlimited NN sizes and GPu's then Stockfish is allowed to have some sort of opening book and Huge number of cores..."Lets Level The Playing Field and Check the Results" AR :D :wink:

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