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Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:35 pm It would be interesting to see how Komodo will do against GM Nakamura or MVL with f2 or f7 pawn odd on 5 different random chess960 positions.

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:37 am If I understand correctly Alpha Zero does not use an opening book based on previous GM games, but instead it created its own opening book from thousands of games by playing against itself, if that is the case computer are capable of creating better opening books than what is collected from previous GMs games.

Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:09 pm

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:35 pm It would be interesting to see how Komodo will do against GM Nakamura or MVL with f2 or f7 pawn odd on 5 different random chess960 positions.

I think it will turn out the opposite to what everyone supposes. Chess 960 will benefit the computer and not the human, and by a lot.

What I mean by that is we have hundreds of years of world class analysis for standard chess openings, both by machines and by humans.
For Chess 960, we only have a couple decades.

This does not benefit the human, it benefits the computer (when it comes to chess 960).
The computer will flawlessly look ahead to great depth. The human is relying on very little well tested out and analyzed opening theory, so he is on his own.

I strongly believe that this situation strongly favors the computer NOT the human. Humans can have advanced study of well known standard chess openings that are closed or that have sound gambits. Computers will struggle more with these. Those areas give the humans a tiny boost (though it is far too late to imagine a return to human dominance -- we can't even win in Go any more).

I know that Chess 960 was supposed to be a big benefit in the battle with the computers. I don't think it will ever achieve that.

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:22 pm

Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:09 pm

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:35 pm It would be interesting to see how Komodo will do against GM Nakamura or MVL with f2 or f7 pawn odd on 5 different random chess960 positions.

I think it will turn out the opposite to what everyone supposes. Chess 960 will benefit the computer and not the human, and by a lot.

What I mean by that is we have hundreds of years of world class analysis for standard chess openings, both by machines and by humans.
For Chess 960, we only have a couple decades.

This does not benefit the human, it benefits the computer (when it comes to chess 960).
The computer will flawlessly look ahead to great depth. The human is relying on very little well tested out and analyzed opening theory, so he is on his own.

I strongly believe that this situation strongly favors the computer NOT the human. Humans can have advanced study of well known standard chess openings that are closed or that have sound gambits. Computers will struggle more with these. Those areas give the humans a tiny boost (though it is far too late to imagine a return to human dominance -- we can't even win in Go any more).

I know that Chess 960 was supposed to be a big benefit in the battle with the computers. I don't think it will ever achieve that.

It is true that we have hundreds of years of world class analysis for standard chess openings, both by machines and by humans.
For Chess 960, we only have a couple decades. But at the same time when a GM face a computer with a huge database opening of most of the previous best opening lines ever played, the GM is at a disadvantage because NOT even a GM with photographic memory can remember thousands and thousands of opening lines and variations and that is the reason why in chess960 where there is no opening databases the human GMs at least can rely on general opening principles even if the computer can out calculate and come out with better opening in Chess960. I do not know how other players feel when they are face with a computer that no matter what you play will instantly reply with the best move during the opening stage in standard chess, but when I set my Fritz16 to play at 2050 at standard chess, the computer win by 58 % of the time, and when I play Chess960 at the same setting of 2050 which is my USCF rating I manage to win 52% of the time, and that is after I read the book Play Stronger Chess by Examining Chess960. Honestly the book showed me how to open the game with different Chess960 positions depending on the position of the Bishops, Queen, and Knights, but because of the opening database of of Fritz16 that does NOT forget lines and variations like we humans I do worse in standard chess than in Chess960.

PS: In order to give any GM a better shot of coming even out of the opening the computer will have to be given an opening database of all the games opening previously played by that particular GM up to probably move 8 or 10 and of course the computer will out-calculate the GM in the middlegame, and that is why for example GM Nakamura or MVL should start playing with program rated around 2600 CCRL and depending on how they come out of the match either replace the program by increasing it or decreasing its CCRL rating. By doing this or using the GM personal openings and place it on the computer it will benefit the GM to improve his own opening repertoire when faced against another human.

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:47 am Kraminik back in 2006 was only rate around 2750 FIDE and Deep Fritz was rated 3110 by CCRL and t Kramnik almost drew the match, therefore there is a difference of 300 rating discrepancy that are very close to Humans FIDE rating and CCRL. I strongly believe that if Magnus ever decide to play vs a computer DF would be a perfect match that would be very close.