Call to all Engine Programers to complain to TCEC

[Gian-Carlo Pascutto]

pseudo-code for alpha-beta is known for a long time.. any implementation is bound to be extremely similar to a previous one, if not equal.

if this isn't a problem, why should using two different NN be?

Is this why all engines are close copies of each other? (oops, they're not...)

In this case, you can also compare lc0 and lczero. It's the same algorithm, but written by 2 different authors. Code is entirely different.

[Uri Blass]

pseudo-code for alpha-beta is known for a long time.. any implementation is bound to be extremely similar to a previous one, if not equal.

if this isn't a problem, why should using two different NN be?

This is not correct that any implementation of alpha-beta is extremely similiar to a previous one.
There are difference rules of pruning difference rules of extensions different rules for order of moves.

The heart of an engine is the if-then part.
Not numbers that are not part of the exe file.

[Gian-Carlo Pascutto]

If I have to be honest to my heart, this isn't about the legitimacy or anything, I guess the LC0 authors are at least cool with the current clarifications, but the real storm is yet to come.

Fanboys' worst nightmare is that his NN may actually perform better in practice...Now that is what this is all about, no?

If we're talking about fanboys, worst nightmares and storms yet to come, let me tell you what I find this is all about:

If Leela Zero Chess gets strong enough to compete in the same division as Stockfish, are you OK with multiple clones of it participating in TCEC with different networks?

[ernest]

To all Programmers, ...

Cool off, man, you seem to be on the verge of a heart attack !!!

Just watch the games, maybe ZeusX will even not win all of them...

[noobpwnftw]

If I have to be honest to my heart, this isn't about the legitimacy or anything, I guess the LC0 authors are at least cool with the current clarifications, but the real storm is yet to come.

Fanboys' worst nightmare is that his NN may actually perform better in practice...Now that is what this is all about, no?

If we're talking about fanboys, worst nightmares and storms yet to come, let me tell you what I find this is all about:

If Leela Zero Chess gets strong enough to compete in the same division as Stockfish, are you OK with multiple clones of it participating in TCEC with different networks?

I do not see how multiple engines may or may not enter is relevant to their strength compared to Stockfish, instead, the problem is 1)how would you define such clones, 2) are code reuse and entrance allowed by their authors. I'm not OK with Leela entering with 2 different nets(i.e. main and test), but one zero and one non-zero net seems sufficiently different, given that LC0 authors say it is OK for DeusX's NN to run on their engine.

Worst case scenario, given limited number of participants, if there is another zero-based NN engine that is much stronger than both of them, then they may only invite the strongest one. Same applies to every other engines, I don't see why that is suddenly a problem when we can have one of a kind of interesting parties at this point.

Your hypothesis that multiple Leela clones may be able to participate, so to speak, my opinion is I would be totally fine with them having asmFish on behalf of official Stockfish to participate the event, provided that such case is under their authors' blessing. So this go back to what is TCEC's point of interest, and whether people for their choice of participants can get along.

I fail to see how that is wrong if they decided to have both Komodo and Komodo MCTS, but my faith is in their authors: if they are really allowed to enter twice, they may be decent enough not to troll around.

[FWCC]

I agree with IQ,something isn't right in this DeusX project. Is it just a form of Leela but NOT ZERO is that the only difference. It just does not feel right.This reminds of the days of Rybka and Vas,just saying.....Hate to say it.

[MikeB]

To all Programmers, Participants of TCEC, TCEC leadership and computer chess afficionados,

We can still stop con-artist and self proclaimed ai-guru Albert Silver from getting away with his biggest coup. Please help the lc0 team that has been ambushed and taken advantage of. See this thread http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68094 for details, a link to Albert Silvers "My True Colors" video, and the opinion of some of the main lc0 developers. Albert Silvers secrecy, his last minute reveal, behind the back communication with TCEC, his insistance that his TCEC participation is a done deal and immutable, did not allow the lc0 team to properly gather their thoughts and take appropriate actions. Even with the added fineprint on chessdom, only now the full scope and intent of his actions starts to sink in.

It is not to late, contrary to what Albert Silver wants everybody to believe by playing the sweet-talking, sole developer and misunderstood AI-genius. His actions are not only unfair, disrespectful to the lc0 team but also against the spirit of TCEC. Don't let him pull ai wool over your eyes by claiming that only his NN is an achievement and that search, interface code, move encoding, uci parser, training tools, etc. are just mere trivial nuisances that hinder Albert Silvers AI genius.

You as programmers should know better and not get lost in his AI smokescreen, even if not to help the lc0 team but also in self-interest to ensure a fair competition. If enough of you complain we can stop this and give the lc0 team some time to contemplate on how to handle such cases in the future, also TCEC could start a process with all of you involved that as an outcome will have a ruleset that has been discussed and agreed upon by the stars of their show: the programmers, dev teams, and collaborators of the engines participating. Do not let Albert Silver pull a fast one on everybody - which is clearly his intention! He wants to generate facts before anybody has the time to think.

Marco, Gary and all the others involved in SF development. Please help!

Larry and Mark: Please help!

Ubaldo, Norman, Robert, Daniel, Youri, Frank and all the others help!

All computer chess afficionados, please help!

If you complain to TCEC we can stop this, even if TCEC has already started. I am sure TCEC will listen. This would allow us all to take a deep breath, discuss the ramifications of ongoing and upcoming issues like this and come to a community consensus, without being pressured by Albert Silvers pulling a fast one on us and in a way that respects the lc0 dev team. Also the lc0 devs that have not yet spoken up in the other thread are encouraged to do so here!

TCEC is just a step above a glorified basement tournament with some very big hardware, a few sponsors and a web presence, they can do what they want , nobody has a say - they can even enter an engine without the engines authors permission. If you don't like it, don't follow it, it's that simple.

[Milos]

TCEC is just a step above a glorified basement tournament with some very big hardware, a few sponsors and a web presence, they can do what they want , nobody has a say - they can even enter an engine without the engines authors permission. If you don't like it, don't follow it, it's that simple.

On the other hand, basement or no basement doesn't matter. What matters is the impact, the reach, the size of the audience if you wish. And in these terms TCEC is by far the biggest computer chess tournament in the world (e.g. far bigger than what WCCC ever was) whether one likes it or not.

[MikeB]

TCEC is just a step above a glorified basement tournament with some very big hardware, a few sponsors and a web presence, they can do what they want , nobody has a say - they can even enter an engine without the engines authors permission. If you don't like it, don't follow it, it's that simple.

On the other hand, basement or no basement doesn't matter. What matters is the impact, the reach, the size of the audience if you wish. And in these terms TCEC is by far the biggest computer chess tournament in the world (e.g. far bigger than what WCCC ever was) whether one likes it or not.

Basement in the sense that you have one person making all the rules -just as if you were running the tournament in your basement. If it's done right, as it was done for many years by the people running TCEC, MANY people will enjoy it. if it's not done right , people can choose vote with their eyeballs and choose to ignore it It really doesn't matter to me how they run it, if I have time I will go through some games regardless. There is always a few games and a few positions that are intriguing. I personally don't mind having two Leela NN engines in it at all, nor does it to bother me to see two see K type engines in it.

[Ron Langeveld]

This is not correct that any implementation of alpha-beta is extremely similiar to a previous one.
There are difference rules of pruning difference rules of extensions different rules for order of moves.

The heart of an engine is the if-then part.
Not numbers that are not part of the exe file.

I like to belief the if-then part of an engine is not the heart of the engine but the resistance (Ω) that is pulling the real heart, evaluation, down.
If you are not talking about heart in terms of strength but in terms of distinction only then yes, the if-then 'obstacles' have a way of telling engines apart

Ron