Karjakin 17.Bxd5 !

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Vizvezdenec
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:30 am

Re: Karjakin 17.Bxd5 !

Post by Vizvezdenec » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:08 pm

White has slight advantage.
But any 3400 engine will defend this as black easily against anyone, be it you with stockfish and 1 day/move, Alphazero or God himself.

zullil
Posts: 5558
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Karjakin 17.Bxd5 !

Post by zullil » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:31 pm

Vizvezdenec wrote:White has slight advantage.
But any 3400 engine will defend this as black easily against anyone, be it you with stockfish and 1 day/move, Alphazero or God himself.
[D] 2krr3/p1q2pp1/1p3b1p/2pB4/2P2PP1/P3B3/1PP2Q1P/1K1R4 b - - 2 22
Yes, I agree. For example, 22...Qe7 here is apparently much better than Caruana's Rd7.

Code: Select all

+0.07 22... Qe7 23. Bc1 Qe2 24. Qg1 Kc7 25. g5 Bd4 26. Qh1 f5 27. h3 Re7 28. h4 Bf2 29. h5 Bd4 30. a4 Kb8 31. a5 bxa5 32. Bf3 Qxc4 33. c3 Red7 34. cxd4 cxd4 35. Rd2 a4 36. Rc2 Qd3 37. Bc6 Rc7 38. gxh6 gxh6 39. Qf3 Qxf3 40. Bxf3 Rxc2 41. Kxc2 d3+ 42. Kd2 Rc8 43. Bd1 Rc4 44. b3 axb3 (depth 40, 0:06:29)

carldaman
Posts: 1687
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Karjakin 17.Bxd5 !

Post by carldaman » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:47 am

10515: Karjakin,S - Caruana,F, World Chess Candidates 2018
[D]2kr2r1/pp1qbpp1/7p/2pp4/5Pb1/P1P1BB2/1PPQ2PP/2KR3R w - - 0 1

Analysis by Zero-the-Hero:


+/- (0.83) Depth: 20/33 00:00:02 5748kN
17.Bxd5 Qc7 18.Qf2 Bxd1 19.Rxd1 g5 20.Kb1 Kb8 21.g3 Rg6 22.Qe2 Rgd6 23.Qc4 Rb6 24.Re1 f6 25.Bc1 Rbd6 26.Bf3 a6 27.h3 Bf8 28.Be3 Rb6 29.Bd5 Ka7 30.Qd3 Rbd6
+/= (0.57) Depth: 21/35 00:00:03 8778kN
17.Bxd5
+/= (0.65 ++) Depth: 22/35 00:00:03 10338kN
17.Bxd5 g5 18.c4 Bxd1 19.Rxd1 Qc7 20.Kb1 Rg6 21.Qc1 f5 22.g3 Kb8 23.Rd3 Ka8 24.fxg5 hxg5 25.Rb3 Rb6 26.Rxb6 Qxb6 27.Bxg5 Bxg5
+/- (0.82 ++) Depth: 23/41 00:00:07 20841kN
17.Bxd5 Bxd1 18.Rxd1 Qc7 19.Qf2 Kb8 20.Kb1 a6 21.f5 Ka7 22.f6 gxf6 23.g3 h5 24.c4 Rh8 25.Rd3 b6 26.Rb3 Bd6 27.Qxf6 Be5 28.Qf3 f6 29.Bf4
+/- (0.78) Depth: 23/41 00:00:07 22750kN
17.Bxd5 Bxd1 18.Rxd1 g5 19.c4 Qc7 20.Kb1 Kb8 21.g3 Rg6 22.Qc1 f5 23.Bd2 Ka8 24.Re1 Bf6 25.c3 Be7 26.Qc2 Rb6 27.Re5 Bf6 28.Rxf5 g4 29.Ka2
+/= (0.63 --) Depth: 24/31 00:00:08 25529kN
17.Bxd5 Bxd1 18.Rxd1 g5 19.c4 Qc7 20.Kb1 Kb8 21.g3 Rg6 22.Qc1 f5 23.Bd2 Ka8 24.Re1 Bf6 25.c3 Be7 26.Qc2 Rb6 27.Re5 Bf6 28.Rxf5 g4 29.Ka2
+/- (0.77 ++) Depth: 25/42 00:00:20 60405kN
17.Bxd5 Bxd1 18.Rxd1 Kb8 19.Qf2 Qc7 20.Kb1 Rge8 21.Rd3 a6 22.c4 Ka7 23.a4 a5 24.g4 b6 25.h4 f5 26.g5 Bd6 27.h5 Re7 28.Rb3 Rxe3 29.Qxe3 Bxf4 30.Qe6 hxg5 31.Qxf5
+/- (0.74) Depth: 25/42 00:00:23 68933kN
17.Bxd5 Bxd1 18.Rxd1 g5 19.c4 Rg6 20.Kb1 g4 21.Qf2 Qc7 22.f5 Rb6 23.Bf4 Bd6 24.Bxd6 Rbxd6 25.Re1 Rb6 26.Qh4 Qd6 27.g3 Qf6 28.Be6+ Rxe6 29.fxe6 Qxh4 30.gxh4 Re8 31.Re5 Rxe6 32.Rxc5+ Kd7 33.Rf5
+/- (0.78) Depth: 26/36 00:00:25 77010kN
17.Bxd5 Bxd1
+/- (0.71 --) Depth: 27/39 00:00:27 80780kN
17.Bxd5 Bxd1 18.Rxd1 g5 19.c4 Rg6 20.Kb1 g4 21.Qf2 Qc7 22.f5 Rb6 23.Bf4 Bd6 24.Bxd6 Rbxd6 25.Re1 Rb6 26.f6 Kb8 27.b3 Rbd6 28.Qf5 R6d7 29.g3 a6 30.Kb2 Qd6 31.Re4 h5 32.Re5 Ka7 33.Qg5 Qc7
+/- (0.75) Depth: 27/39 00:00:28 83804kN

(CL, 25.03.2018)
:D

Nay Lin Tun
Posts: 511
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:34 am

Re: Karjakin 17.Bxd5 !

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:23 am

That is positionally draw. Black has open "e" file to counter play. Black missed "f5" to block king side and also counter play on "e" file. Cos we have 3400+ stockfish , we can analyse the position properly.

BeyondCritics
Posts: 343
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 12:48 pm
Location: Bergheim

Re: Karjakin 17.Bxd5 !

Post by BeyondCritics » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:28 am

[pgn][Event "World Chess Candidates 2018"]
[Site "Berlin"]
[Date "2018.03.24"]
[Round "12"]
[White "Karjakin, Sergey"]
[Black "Caruana, Fabiano"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C42"]
[Annotator "Stockfish 9, FM Roese"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.Nc3 Nxc3 6.dxc3 Nc6 7.Be3 Be7 8.
Qd2 Be6 9.O-O-O Qd7 10.a3 h6 11.Nd4 Nxd4 12.Bxd4 Rg8 13.Be2 c5 14.Be3 d5
15.f4 O-O-O 16.Bf3 Bg4 17.Bxd5 Bxd1 18.Rxd1 Qc7 19.c4 Rge8 20.Qf2 b6!?
( 20...f5! 21.Rd3 b6 22.Kb1 Bf6 23.Qf3 Kb8
( 23...Qe7? 24.Qh5 +/- )
24.Ka2
( 24.h3 Qe7!
( 24...g6 25.g4 += )
25.Ka2
( 25.Rb3 Bd4! 26.Bxd4 cxd4 27.Qd3 Qf6 = )
( 25.g4 Bd4! 26.Bxd4 cxd4 27.gxf5 Qe1+ 28.Rd1 Qe2 29.Qh1
( 29.Qxe2 Rxe2 30.Rxd4 = )
29...Re3 = )
25...Bd4!
( 25...a6 26.g4 fxg4 27.hxg4 Ka7 28.Qf2 Qc7 29.Rb3 Rc8 += )
26.Bxd4 cxd4 27.Qh5 Qf6 28.Rg3 Re1 29.Rg6 Qf8 = )
24...g6 = )
21.g4!?
( 21.Bd2 Bf6
( 21...Kb8 22.Qf3 f5 23.Bc3 Bf6 24.Bxf6 gxf6 += )
22.Qf3 Kb8
( 22...Qe7?? 23.Bxf7 +- )
23.g4 Bh4!
( 23...Re7 24.Be1! a6 25.Bg3 Rde8 26.Kb1 Ka7 27.Rd3 += )
24.g5
( 24.Kb1 Qe7 25.f5 Bg5 26.Be1 Bh4 27.Bc3 Bf6 = )
( 24.Bc3 Bf6! 25.Bxf6 gxf6 26.Kb1 Qe7 = )
( 24.Qh3 Qe7 = )
24...hxg5 25.fxg5 f6 26.gxf6 Bxf6 27.Kb1 Rf8
( 27...a6 28.Bf4 Be5 29.Bg5 +/- )
28.Qe4 Rde8 29.Bf4 Rxe4 30.Bxc7+ Kxc7 31.Bxe4 Rh8 = )
( 21.Qf3 f5 22.Qh5 Kb8 23.Qxf5? Bd6 =+ )
21...Bf6! 22.Kb1
( 22.Qf3 Qe7! 23.Re1 Qc7! 24.c3 Kb8 = )
( 22.Rd3 Qe7 = )
22...Rd7?
( 22...Kb8!? 23.Rd3 a5 24.h4 g6
( 24...Ka7 25.g5 Be7 26.gxh6 gxh6 27.f5 Rh8 28.f6 Bd6 29.h5 += )
25.g5 hxg5 26.hxg5 Bg7 27.f5 gxf5 28.Qxf5 Ka7 29.Qf1 Re7 30.Bf4 Be5
31.Bc1 Bg7 32.Rf3 Rdd7 += )
( 22...Qe7 23.Rd3
( 23.Bc1 Qe2 24.Qg1 Bd4 25.Qh1 Rxd5!? 26.cxd5 Qxg4 = )
23...b5!!
( 23...Kb8?! 24.g5!
( 24.Ka2 Rxd5! 25.cxd5 Qe4!
( 25...c4?! 26.d6 Qe4 27.d7 cxd3 28.dxe8=Q+ Qxe8 29.g5!
Be7 30.gxh6 gxh6 31.cxd3 += )
26.d6 Qe6+ 27.Kb1 Qxg4 = )
( 24.h3 Rxd5! 25.cxd5 c4!
( 25...Qe4?? 26.Bxc5! +- )
26.d6 Qe4 27.Rd1
( 27.d7 Qh1+ 28.Ka2 Rd8 = )
27...Qxe3 28.d7 Re4 29.d8=Q+ Bxd8 30.Qxe3 Rxe3 31.Rxd8+ Kc7 =
)
24...Bd4 25.Bxd4 cxd4 26.Ka2!
( 26.Qxd4 hxg5 27.Qxg7 gxf4 28.h4 Qxh4 29.Qxf7 += )
26...hxg5!?
( 26...Qe2!! 27.Qxd4 Qxc2 28.gxh6 gxh6 29.Rb3 Rd7 30.a4
( 30.Rxb6+ axb6 = )
30...Re1
( 30...Kc8!! = )
31.c5 f6!! 32.cxb6 Qb1+ 33.Ka3 Qa1+ 34.Kb4 a5+! 35.Kxa5 Rd1!
36.Rd3 Rxd3 37.Qxd3 Qxb2! 38.Ka6! Qg2!!
( 38...Qa2?? 39.Bxa2 Rxd3 40.Kb5! +- )
39.Bxg2 Rxd3 40.Kb5 Rd2 = )
27.fxg5 Qxg5 28.Qxf7 Re7 29.Qf3 += )
( 23...Rxd5? 24.cxd5 Qe4 25.Bxc5! +/- )
24.Ka2
( 24.cxb5?? c4 25.b6
( 25.Bxc4 Rxd3! 26.Bxd3 Qxe3 -+ )
25...cxd3 26.bxa7 Kd7! -+ )
( 24.Rb3? Rxd5! 25.cxd5 c4 26.d6 Qe4 27.d7+ Kxd7 28.Qd2+ Kc6! 29.
Rxb5 Bd4! 30.Bxd4 Qe1+ 31.Qc1 Qxc1+ 32.Kxc1 Kxb5 -+ )
( 24.Bc1 bxc4 25.Bxc4 Rxd3 26.Bxd3 Bd4 = )
24...bxc4 25.Bxc5 Qe2 26.Bxc4 Qxf2 27.Bxf2 Rxd3 28.Bxd3 = )
23.Rd3 +/- g5
( 23...Kb8 24.h4 +/- )
24.Ka2 Ree7 25.Qf3 Kd8 26.Bd2 Kc8 27.Qf1 Rd6 28.fxg5 Bxg5 29.Bxg5 hxg5 30.
Qf5+ Rdd7 31.Qxg5 Qe5 32.Qh6 Kd8 33.g5 Qd6 34.Qh8+ Re8 35.Qh4 Qg6 36.Qg4
Re5 37.h4 Ke7 38.Rd2 b5 39.Bxf7 Qf5 40.Rxd7+ Kxd7 41.Qxf5+ Rxf5 42.g6 Ke7
43.cxb5 Rh5 44.c4 Rxh4 45.a4 Rg4 46.a5 Kd6 47.a6 Kc7 48.Kb3 1-0
[/pgn]

I just post my personal notes here, compiled today before noon with stockfish 9.
The preliminary conclusion is, that indeed after 20...f5 where is a clean and simple path to complete equality. But 20..b6 is not bad either, if you are stockfish! This would still lead to an easy draw after 21.g4 Bf6 22.Kb1 Qe7, but not 22...Rd7? which seems already to loose. As a human, maybe you would prefer 22...Kb8 and defend a worse position.

User avatar
M ANSARI
Posts: 3399
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:10 pm

Re: Karjakin 17.Bxd5 !

Post by M ANSARI » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:08 am

I think it was a practical choice for a human to play again another human, but I doubt any strong engine would have problems with that exchange sacrifice. Caruana had to play some inferior moves to get in a lost position ... something a good engine would not have done. That is why you will have a hard time getting an engine to go for it. There are many other choices that are just as good or maybe even better (according to an engine).

Peter Svidler has a very nice video on this game.

http://youtu.be/A5Ro9oUtFsA

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