Correct contination for black

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Look
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Correct contination for black

Post by Look » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:09 pm

Hi,

Can you see the correct continuation for black in this position:

[d] r4rk1/2pbqppp/p1ppp1n1/2P1P3/3P4/2N2N1P/PP1Q1PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 15

kgburcham
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Re: Correct contination for black

Post by kgburcham » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:56 pm

Look wrote:Hi,

Can you see the correct continuation for black in this position:

[d] r4rk1/2pbqppp/p1ppp1n1/2P1P3/3P4/2N2N1P/PP1Q1PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 15
[D] r4rk1/2pbqppp/p1ppp1n1/2P1P3/3P4/2N2N1P/PP1Q1PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 15
no chess program was born totally from one mind. all chess programs have many ideas from many minds.

zullil
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Re: Correct contination for black

Post by zullil » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:43 am

Look wrote:Hi,

Can you see the correct continuation for black in this position:

[D] r4rk1/2pbqppp/p1ppp1n1/2P1P3/3P4/2N2N1P/PP1Q1PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 15
Resign? Cfish doesn't see anything promising here for Black.

Code: Select all

+0.93 15... dxc5 16. dxc5 Bc8 17. Rad1 a5 18. Re4 h6 19. Qe3 Ba6 20. b3 Rfd8 21. Red4 Qf8 22. Qd2 Rxd4 23. Qxd4 Qc8 24. Kh2 Ne7 25. Qd2 Qb8 26. Qe1 Qe8 27. Rd2 Qf8 28. Rd7 Bc8 29. Rd4 Nf5 30. Rd1 Ne7 31. Qd2 Nd5 32. Nxd5 cxd5 33. Qc3 c6 34. Kg1 Qe7 35. Nd4 Bd7 36. Rd2 Qh4 37. Re2 Qe7 38. f4 Qh4 39. Rf2 h5 40. Rf1 Qd8 41. a3 Rb8 42. Rc1 Ra8 43. Re1 Qh4 44. Rf1 Qe7 45. g3 h4 46. g4 (depth 57, 10:54:31)

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Eelco de Groot
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Re: Correct contination for black

Post by Eelco de Groot » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:06 pm

I think the question was how best to defend with Black, if you are a human player. My reflex would be to close the position with d5 but you have a hard time to find a way out for the Bishop. I am probably worse at Blitz play than LC Zero though. People would add exclamation signs after every 1 in the tournament table at the ""Kippenfuif" at New Year's Eve, if I had managed to win a game.. The rascals. I don't think Stockfish can really judge the position after it is closed very well, and will try to maximize mobility regardless if it has to defend or attack. Now that mobility and King safety are multiplied with each other instead of just added up, I can't predict what the effect is anymore :?
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
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are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
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zullil
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Re: Correct contination for black

Post by zullil » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:51 pm

Eelco de Groot wrote:I think the question was how best to defend with Black, if you are a human player.
Against a human player, Cfish's "idea" of a5 Bc8 Ba6 seems sensible. Against an engine, I'd resign. :wink:

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Eelco de Groot
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Re: Correct contination for black

Post by Eelco de Groot » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:46 pm

Hi Louis,

I think you use contempt = 0 but even so, 0.93 for White I guess is not large enough for a decive advantage, with dynamic contempt. In the Aronian - Kramnik game, with contempt = 18 I got scores over 1 pawn that I think were not all decisive. (At least four moves should be possible here in the diagram for Aronian but that is only a broad guess. Because contempt ON the scores below are lower I think but probably not a lot.) It may be a bit too soon to resign...

[D]r1b1k1r1/ppp1qppp/2p2n2/2b1p3/4P3/3P1N1P/PPP2PP1/RNBQ1RK1 w q -

Engine: Kaissa III (512 MB)
by T. Romstad, M. Costalba, J. Kiiski, G. Linscott

39 1321:21-0.37 8.Nbd2 g5 9.d4 Bxd4 10.Nxd4 exd4
11.e5 Nd5 12.Ne4 Bf5 13.Ng3 Qe6
14.Qxd4 Bxc2 15.Re1 h6 16.Bd2 b6
17.Qc4 Bg6 18.Qa4 Qd7 19.Rac1 c5
20.Qa6 Kf8 21.Rcd1 (151.957.396.798) 1916

39 1321:21-0.82 8.Kh1 h6 9.Nbd2 g5 10.Nc4 Bd6
11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Nh2 Be6 13.Qe1 h5
14.Rg1 g4 15.f4 O-O-O 16.f5 Bd7
17.Be3 c5 18.b4 Bc6 19.bxc5 gxh3
20.cxd6 hxg2+ 21.Rxg2 (151.957.396.798) 1916

39 1321:21-0.85 8.b4 Bxb4 9.c3 Bd6 10.d4 g5 11.dxe5 Bxe5
12.Nxe5 Qxe5 13.Qd4 Qxd4 14.cxd4 Be6
15.Nc3 O-O-O 16.Rd1 Rde8 17.f3 h5
18.Be3 Kb8 19.d5 cxd5 20.Bd4 Nd7
21.exd5 (151.957.396.798) 1916

39 1321:21-0.92 8.Bg5 h6 9.Bxf6 Qxf6 10.Nh2 Be6
11.Qf3 Qg5 12.Nc3 O-O-O 13.a3 Bd4
14.Rab1 f6 15.Ne2 Bb6 16.b4 c5 17.c4 Kb8
18.Rfd1 Rgf8 19.Qg3 Qxg3 20.Nxg3 cxb4
21.axb4 (151.957.396.798) 1916

39 1321:21-1.10 8.Kh2 h6 9.g3 g5 10.Ng1 Be6 11.Be3 Bxe3
12.fxe3 O-O-O 13.Nd2 Kb8 14.b3 h5
15.Qe2 Nd7 16.a4 g4 17.h4 Nf8 18.a5 a6
19.Qf2 Nd7 20.Nc4 Rdf8 21.Qe2 (151.957.396.798) 1916

39 1321:21-1.11 8.d4 exd4 9.e5 Nd5 10.Nbd2 Bd7
11.Nb3 O-O-O 12.Re1 h6 13.Nxc5 Qxc5
14.Nxd4 g5 15.c3 Qe7 16.e6 Bxe6
17.Nxe6 fxe6 18.Qg4 Nf4 19.Bxf4 gxf4
20.Qxe6+ Qxe6 21.Rxe6 (151.957.396.798) 1916

39 1321:21-1.12 8.c3 g5 9.Nxe5 g4 10.d4 gxh3 11.g3 Bd6
12.Bf4 Be6 13.Nd2 O-O-O 14.Qe2 h5
15.Kh1 h4 16.gxh4 Bg4 17.Ndf3 Nh5
18.Bg5 Rxg5 19.hxg5 Bxe5 20.dxe5 Nf4
21.Qe3 (151.957.396.798) 1916

39 1321:21-1.14 8.a3 g5 9.b4 Bd6 10.Nh2 a5 11.bxa5 Be6
12.Qe1 Nh5 13.Kh1 g4 14.hxg4 Bxg4
15.g3 Be6 16.Nc3 Rxa5 17.Nd1 Ra8
18.Ne3 Bc5 19.Rg1 Qf6 20.Bd2 Rxa3
21.Rxa3 (151.957.396.798) 1916

[pgn][Event "FIDE Candidates 2018"]
[Site "Berlin GER"]
[Date "2018.03.12"]
[Round "3.4"]
[White "Aronian, Levon"]
[Black "Kramnik, Vladimir"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteTitle "GM"]
[BlackTitle "GM"]
[WhiteElo "2794"]
[BlackElo "2800"]
[ECO "C65"]
[Opening "Ruy Lopez"]
[Variation "Berlin defence"]
[WhiteFideId "13300474"]
[BlackFideId "4101588"]
[EventDate "2018.03.10"]

1. e4 {Aronian prepared 1.e4 for this game rather than his usual 1.c4 or 1.d4
but afterwards he said "It wasn't a good decision."} e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6
4. d3 Bc5 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. O-O ({Relevant:} 6. Nbd2 Bg4 7. h3 Bh5 8. Nf1 Nd7 9.
Ng3 Bxf3 10. Qxf3 g6 11. Be3 Qe7 12. O-O Bd6 13. a4 c5 14. c3 O-O-O 15. Rfb1
Kb8 16. a5 a6 17. Nf1 Qe6 18. Qd1 f5 19. f3 Be7 20. Qa4 Nf6 {1/2-1/2 (20)
Jakovenko,D (2710)-Almasi,Z (2707) Germany 2018}) 6... Qe7 {Kramnik likes this
move for black. He's waiting for Nbd2 and then he will play Bg4.} 7. h3 {
Kramnik thought h3 was a "very serious move" but then a "couple of years ago"
he found 7...Rg8 in response.} Rg8 $1 {A very strong move. Kramnik had been
waiting a while to play it. "I think it's just a killer. Black is just better
after Rg8 and I was waiting for my moment to use it and of course it came at a
most unexpected moment. In Candidates, against Levon, who doesn't play e4. Rg8
is a very strong move here.". Kramnik. He said that the computer doesn't show
it immediately but g5 is a powerful threat.} (7... h6 {is also very sharp but
eventually Kramnik realised the text is best.}) 8. Kh1 {Kramnik thought this
"almost the only move" but his only problem was he couldn't remember anything
of his analysis.} Nh5 $146 {Kramnik remembered that this was one of the
options here.} ({Predecessor:} 8... h6 9. Nbd2 g5 10. Nc4 Bd6 11. d4 Nxe4 12.
dxe5 Bc5 13. Qe2 f5 14. Nfd2 Nxd2 15. Nxd2 Be6 16. Nb3 Bb6 17. Be3 O-O-O 18.
Rfd1 c5 19. Rxd8+ Rxd8 20. c4 f4 21. Bd2 Qf7 22. Rc1 a6 23. f3 h5 24. Qe4 Bf5
25. Qe1 g4 26. Qh4 Rf8 27. fxg4 hxg4 28. hxg4 Bd3 29. g5 Kb8 30. e6 Qxe6 31.
Bxf4 Qe4 32. Bg3 Qe2 33. Qh6 Rg8 34. Re1 Qg4 35. Qh4 Qxg5 36. Qxg5 Rxg5 37. Kh2
Rh5+ 38. Kg1 {Kazoks,A (2345)-Calio,M (2334) ICCF email 2015 0-1}) 9. c3 $6 {
Perhaps too slow.} (9. Nc3 {was Aronian's immediate suggestion after the game.}
g5 10. Nxe5 g4 11. d4 {and at least for the moment black doesn't have the big
advantage he gets in the game.} gxh3 {was Kramnik's suggestion but} 12. g4 $3 {
turns the tables.}) (9. Nh2 g6 (9... Nf6 10. Nf3)) 9... g5 10. Nxe5 (10. d4 {
may be marginally better.} exd4 11. cxd4 Bb6 12. Nh2 (12. Nc3 g4 13. Nh2 gxh3
14. g3 {is horrid.})) (10. b4 Bb6 11. Nxe5 g4 12. d4 Qh4 {looks terrible.})
10... g4 11. d4 Bd6 12. g3 Bxe5 13. dxe5 Qxe5 14. Qd4 Qe7 {It's perhaps a sign
of Aronian's form today that he didn't realise black could keep queens on here.
Of course Kramnik is going for the kill.} 15. h4 c5 {Black is already much
better but white needs to work out how to resist best. Instead he goes for
broke.} 16. Qc4 (16. Qd3 {Kramnik thought this was the only chance.} Bd7 17. c4
O-O-O 18. Nc3 {black is much better but white isn't collapsing immediately.})
16... Be6 17. Qb5+ c6 18. Qa4 $2 {The losing move. "It was a terrible blunder.
I forgot white is threatening f5." Aronian.} (18. Qd3 {is absolutely forced,
although Aronian called this "hopeless" too.} Rd8 19. Qe3 Bc4 20. Rg1 {and
black is again much better but he still has work to do. Now Kramnik just wins.}
) (18. Qe2 f5 $1 {also is winning.}) 18... f5 $1 {Just so.} 19. Bg5 {There is
no longer a defence. This was played after a long thought from Aronian.} (19.
exf5 Nxg3+ $1 {is just the end.} 20. fxg3 (20. Kg2 Nxf5) 20... Bd5+ 21. Kg1 Qe2
22. Rf2 Qe1+ 23. Rf1 Qxg3#) 19... Rxg5 {The only move for an advantage but
it's obvious there's no problem with sacrificing the exchange here.} 20. hxg5
f4 $1 {Again best.} 21. Qd1 Rd8 22. Qc1 fxg3 23. Na3 Rd3 24. Rd1 Bd5 {Kramnik
is finding all the best and most crushing moves. He said he wanted to finish
in a beautiful way but was afraid to miscalculate in this winning position. As
it was he found all the best moves.} 25. f3 {It's mate in 9.} gxf3 26. exd5 (
26. Rxd3 Qxe4 27. Re3 f2+ 28. Rxe4+ Bxe4# {was Kramnik's "main idea."}) 26...
Qe2 27. Re1 g2+ (27... g2+ 28. Kg1 (28. Kh2 g1=Q+ 29. Kxg1 f2+ 30. Kh1 Rh3+ 31.
Kg2 f1=Q#) 28... f2+ 29. Kh2 g1=Q+ 30. Rxg1 f1=B+ {Promoting to Bishop, Knight
or Queen all work here.} 31. Kh1 Rh3#) 0-1[/pgn]

The position was posted a week or so ago by Bryan in Fishcooking
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

Dann Corbit
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Location: Redmond, WA USA
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Re: Correct contination for black

Post by Dann Corbit » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:12 pm

So far, looks like 1/2 pawn.
This is standard SF, but I added Uri's cramped check that is persistent for 2 plies.

[d]r1b1k1r1/ppp1qppp/2p2n2/2b1p3/4P3/3P1N1P/PPP2PP1/RNBQ1RK1 w q -

Code: Select all

Searching: r1b1k1r1/ppp1qppp/2p2n2/2b1p3/4P3/3P1N1P/PPP2PP1/RNBQ1RK1 w q - 0 1
infinite: 0 time: 0 increment: 0 moves to go: 0

 1   +0.88   00:00    2335  Bg5 
 2   +1.54   00:00   15038  Bd2 Nd7 
 3   +1.44   00:00   29828  Bd2 Nd7 a3 a5 
 4   +1.15   00:00   46819  c3 g5 d4 g4 hxg4 exd4 cxd4 
 5   +0.88   00:00   64016  a3 a5 Nc3 h6 Na4 
 6   +1.15   00:00   80332  a3 a5 Nc3 h6 Na4 g5 
 7   +0.98   00:00  114300  c3 g5 d4 g4 hxg4 exd4 e5 
 8   +1.05   00:00  129617  c3 h6 Nbd2 g5 d4 g4 hxg4 Bd6 
 9   +1.10   00:00  169843  c3 h6 Nbd2 g5 d4 exd4 cxd4 Bb6 e5 
10   +0.95   00:00  223693  c3 Bd6 Be3 h6 Nbd2 g5 Nh2 h5 Nc4 g4 Nxd6+ cxd6 
11   +1.01   00:00  319999  c3 Bd6 a4 h6 a5 g5 a6 bxa6 Qa4 Bd7 Be3 g4 
12   +0.73   00:00  769803  c3 Bd6 b4 h6 Nbd2 g5 a4 Be6 a5 g4 hxg4 Nxg4 
13   +0.57   00:00   2657K  c3 Bd6 Qb3 Qe6 Na3 Qxb3 axb3 Be6 Nc4 Nd7 Be3 f6 Rxa7 Rxa7 Bxa7 
14   +0.11   00:01   5350K  a3 a5 c3 g5 d4 g4 dxc5 gxf3 Qxf3 Qe6 Kh2 Bd7 Be3 O-O-O b4 Kb8 bxa5 
15   -0.01   00:01   8221K  Re1 g5 d4 Bd6 dxe5 Bxe5 Nxe5 Qxe5 Nd2 g4 Nc4 Qe7 hxg4 Be6 Qd4 Rxg4 
16   +0.27   00:02  12504K  c3 g5 d4 Bd6 dxe5 Bxe5 Nxe5 Qxe5 Qd4 Qxd4 cxd4 g4 hxg4 Bxg4 f3 Bh3 Rf2 Rg6 Be3 O-O-O Kf1 Be6 Nc3 
17   +0.28   00:02  12717K  c3 g5 d4 Bd6 dxe5 Bxe5 Nxe5 Qxe5 Qd4 Qxd4 cxd4 g4 hxg4 Bxg4 f3 Bh3 Rf2 Rg6 Be3 O-O-O Kh2 Be6 Nc3 Kb8 b3 
18   +0.20   00:04  20591K  a3 a5 c3 g5 d4 g4 dxc5 Nxe4 Nbd2 gxf3 Nxe4 Rxg2+ Kh1 Qh4 Qxf3 Bxh3 Nf6+ Ke7 Qh5 Qxh5 Nxh5 Rag8 b4 axb4 axb4 
19   -0.38   00:09  43751K  a3 a5 Re1 g5 d4 exd4 Nbd2 g4 e5 Nd5 hxg4 Ne3 Qe2 Nxc2 Ne4 Nxe1 Nf6+ Kd8 Nxg8 Nxf3+ gxf3 Qh4 Qc4 
20   -0.19   00:11  53012K  a3 a5 Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 Re1 Nd7 Nf1 Ne5 Qxd4 Bxh3 b4 f6 Bb2 Be6 Ne3 axb4 axb4 Kf7 Rxa8 Rxa8 Rd1 
21   -0.18   00:14  65944K  a3 a5 Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 Re1 Nd7 Nf3 c5 c3 Ne5 cxd4 Nxf3+ Qxf3 cxd4 Bd2 g4 Qg3 Be6 f3 f6 hxg4 h5 
22   -0.30   00:15  71789K  a3 a5 Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 Re1 Nd7 Nf1 c5 c3 dxc3 Ne3 Ne5 Qb3 b6 Nd5 Qd6 Qxc3 Bb7 f4 gxf4 Bxf4 f6 Rad1 O-O-O Nxf6 Nf3+ Qxf3 
23   -0.20   00:17  78160K  a3 a5 Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 Re1 Nd7 Nf1 c5 c3 dxc3 Ne3 Ne5 Qb3 b6 Nd5 Qd6 Qxc3 Bd7 Rd1 O-O-O b4 
24   -0.48   00:33 153766K  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Qxe5 Re1 Be6 Nc5 Qf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nxe6 fxe6 Qxa7 Nb6 Be3 g4 h4 g3 fxg3 Rxg3 Re2 Rg4 Rf2 Qe5 Bxb6 cxb6 Qa8+ Qb8 
25   -0.40   00:40 187183K  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Qxe5 Re1 Be6 Nc5 Qf5 Nxe6 fxe6 Qxd4 O-O-O Qxa7 Nb6 Qa3 Qxc2 Be3 Qd3 Qxd3 Rxd3 Bxb6 cxb6 Rxe6 Rd2 b3 Rgd8 a4 Rb2 Re3 Rdd2 Rf3 
26   -0.42   00:43 200111K  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Qxe5 Re1 Be6 Nc5 Qf5 Nxe6 fxe6 Qxd4 O-O-O Qxa7 Nb6 Qa3 Qxc2 Be3 Qa4 Qe7 Nd5 Qxe6+ Kb8 b3 Qb4 Rad1 Rge8 Bd2 Rxe6 Bxb4 
27   -0.40   00:47 221446K  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Qxe5 Re1 Be6 Nc5 Qf5 Nxe6 fxe6 Qxd4 O-O-O Qxa7 Nb6 Qa3 Qxc2 Be3 Qd3 Qxd3 Rxd3 Bxb6 cxb6 Rxe6 Rd2 b3 Rgd8 a4 Rb2 Re3 Rdd2 Rf3 Kc7 Re1 Rd7 
28   -0.52   01:00 279354K  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Qxe5 Re1 Be6 Nc5 Qf5 Nxe6 fxe6 Qxd4 O-O-O Qxa7 Nb6 Qa3 Qxc2 Be3 Qd3 Qxd3 Rxd3 Bxb6 cxb6 Rxe6 Rd2 b4 Rf8 f3 Rfd8 a3 b5 Rae1 Ra2 R1e5 Rd7 Rxg5 Rxa3 Rg4 Ra1+ Kh2 Kc7 Rg8 
29   -0.49   01:07 313766K  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Qxe5 Re1 Be6 Nc5 Qf5 Nxe6 fxe6 Qxd4 O-O-O Qxa7 Nb6 Qa3 Qxc2 Be3 Qd3 Qxd3 Rxd3 Bxb6 cxb6 Rxe6 Rd2 b4 Rf8 f3 Rfd8 a3 b5 Rae1 Ra2 R1e5 Rd7 Rxg5 Rxa3 Rg4 Ra1+ Kh2 Kc7 Kg3 Ra2 Re5 Kb6 Rg8 
30   -0.36   01:47 497222K  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Qxe5 Re1 Be6 Nc5 Qf5 Nxe6 fxe6 Qxd4 O-O-O Qxa7 Nb6 Qa3 Qxc2 Be3 Qd3 Qxd3 Rxd3 Bxb6 cxb6 Rxe6 Rd2 b4 Rf8 f3 Rfd8 a3 b5 Rae1 Ra2 R1e5 Rxa3 
31   -0.39   02:05 580838K  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Bf5 Ng3 Qe6 Qxd4 Bxc2 Bd2 Qg6 Qg4 h5 Qxh5 Qxh5 Nxh5 O-O-O g4 Bd3 Rfd1 b6 Bxg5 Rxg5 Rxd3 Rxe5 Rf3 Re2 Rxf7 Rxb2 Nf4 
32   -0.40   02:40 748443K  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Qxe5 Re1 Be6 Nc5 Qf5 Nxe6 fxe6 Qxd4 O-O-O Qxa7 Nb6 Qa3 Qxc2 Be3 Qd3 Qxd3 Rxd3 Bxb6 cxb6 Rxe6 Rd2 b4 Rf8 f3 Rfd8 a3 b5 Rae1 Ra2 R1e5 Rxa3 Rxg5 Rd7 Re4 Rb3 Rge5 Kc7 Kh2 h6 Re8 Kb6 
33   -0.56   03:50   1099M  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Qxe5 Re1 Be6 Nc5 Qf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nxe6 fxe6 Qxa7 Nb6 Qa3 Qxc2 Be3 Qd3 Qxd3 Rxd3 Bxb6 cxb6 Rxe6 Rd2 b4 Rgd8 a3 b5 Re7 R8d7 Re5 h6 Re8+ Rd8 Re7 Rd1+ Rxd1 Rxd1+ Kh2 Rd2 Rh7 Rxf2 Rxh6 
34   -0.47   04:14   1222M  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Bf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nf6 Nxf6 exf6 Rxd4 fxe7 Kd7 Be3 Re4 Rad1+ Kxe7 g4 Be6 Rfe1 Re5 f3 Rd5 Rxd5 cxd5 Kf2 b6 b4 Kd7 a4 Kd6 Bd4 c5 Be5+ Ke7 bxc5 bxc5 Bg3 d4 h4 Kf6 hxg5+ Rxg5 Rb1 
35   -0.50   05:44   1659M  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Bf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nf6 Nxf6 exf6 Rxd4 fxe7 Kd7 Be3 Re4 Rad1+ Kxe7 g4 Be6 Rfe1 Re5 f3 h5 b3 hxg4 hxg4 Rd5 Rxd5 cxd5 Kf2 b6 Rh1 f5 Rh5 fxg4 fxg4 Bxg4 Rxg5 Rxg5 Bxg5+ Kd6 Bf4+ Kc6 
36   -0.47   08:17   2422M  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Bf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nf6 Nxf6 exf6 Rxd4 fxe7 Kd7 Be3 Re4 Rad1+ Kxe7 g4 Be6 Rfe1 Re5 Kh2 Rd8 Rxd8 Kxd8 Kg3 f6 b3 Ke7 c4 b6 h4 h6 f4 gxf4+ Kxf4 a5 Bd2 Rxe1 Bxe1 c5 
37   -0.43   10:21   3070M  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Bf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nf6 Nxf6 exf6 Rxd4 fxe7 Re4 g4 Bd7 Bd2 Rxe7 Rae1 Re6 Rxe6 Bxe6 f3 h6 b3 c5 Kf2 b6 h4 gxh4 Rh1 h5 gxh5 h3 Rg1 Rh8 h6 Bf5 Kg3 Kb7 Bf4 Kc6 Rh1 Rg8+ Kh4 
38   -0.49   11:17   3355M  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Bf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nf6 Nxf6 exf6 Rxd4 fxe7 Kd7 Be3 Re4 Rad1+ Kxe7 g4 Be6 Rfe1 Re5 Kh2 c5 f4 gxf4 Bxf4 Rxe1 Rxe1 Kd7 Re5 Kc6 a3 Rd8 Kg3 Rd4 Rh5 Re4 c3 Re2 b4 b6 bxc5 Rc2 
39   -0.42   19:13   5590M  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Bf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nf6 Nxf6 exf6 Rxd4 fxe7 Kd7 Be3 Re4 Rad1+ Kxe7 g4 Be6 Rfe1 Rc4 c3 Ra4 Ra1 Ra5 c4 Re5 b3 f6 f3 b6 Kf2 h5 Rh1 c5 Rae1 Bf7 f4 gxf4 Bxf4 Rxe1 Rxe1+ Kd7 
40   -0.52   29:00   8298M  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Bf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nf6 Nxf6 exf6 Rxd4 fxe7 Re4 g4 Bd7 Bd2 Rxe7 Rae1 Re6 Rxe6 Bxe6 f3 h6 Kf2 c5 b3 f5 Re1 Kd7 Rd1 Kc6 Re1 Rg6 c4 Bd7 Re7 Rd6 Bc3 fxg4 hxg4 Rd3 Be5 Rd2+ Ke3 Rxa2 Rh7 
41   -0.49   31:31   9010M  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Bf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nf6 Nxf6 exf6 Rxd4 fxe7 Re4 g4 Bd7 Bd2 Rxe7 Rae1 Re6 Rxe6 Bxe6 f3 c5 Kf2 f5 Re1 Kd7 Rd1 Kc6 Re1 Bxa2 b3 fxg4 hxg4 c4 b4 c3 Bxc3 Bd5 Re5 Rf8 Rf5 Rxf5 gxf5 h5 Bd2 
42   -0.50   34:49   9944M  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Bf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nf6 Nxf6 exf6 Rxd4 fxe7 Re4 g4 Bd7 Bd2 Rxe7 Rae1 Re6 Rxe6 Bxe6 f3 c5 Kf2 f5 Re1 Kd7 Rd1 Kc6 Re1 Rg6 Bxg5 fxg4 hxg4 Bxg4 fxg4 Rxg5 Re6+ Kd7 Rh6 Rxg4 Rxh7+ Kc6 Rh6+ Kb5 Rh7 Kb6 Kf3 
43   -0.48   41:50  11971M  Nbd2 g5 d4 Bxd4 Nxd4 exd4 e5 Nd5 Ne4 Bf5 Qxd4 O-O-O Nf6 Nxf6 exf6 Rxd4 fxe7 Re4 g4 Bd7 Bd2 Rxe7 Rae1 Re6 Rxe6 Bxe6 f3 c5 Kf2 b6 Re1 Kd7 b3 h6 Bc3 a6 Rd1+ Kc6 Re1 a5 f4 gxf4 Bd2 Bd7 Bxf4 f5 gxf5 Bxf5 Re7 Rc8 c4 Bxh3 Bxh6 Bg4 Bf4 
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

peter
Posts: 1853
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Correct contination for black

Post by peter » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:30 am

Hi Louis!

After some FW- BW of the line after 15...dxc5 MV started with 20 variants(about 15 seem to not lose at once neither) then reduced to 4.
Here in depth 45:

Code: Select all

r4rk1/2pbqppp/p1ppp1n1/2P1P3/3P4/2N2N1P/PP1Q1PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by asmFishW_2018-03-13_popcnt:

1. +/=  (0.45): 15...dxc5 16.dxc5 Bc8 17.Rad1 a5 18.Ne4 Ba6 19.Nd4 Qh4 20.Qc3 Rfd8 21.Kh2 Qh6 22.Qxa5 Nxe5 23.Qxc7 Qf4+ 24.Kh1 Rdc8 25.Qd6 Rd8 26.Nxe6 fxe6 27.Qxe6+ Nf7 28.Rxd8+ Rxd8 29.Qxc6 Bc4 30.Qa4 Be6 31.Nc3 Qxa4 32.Nxa4 Bxa2 33.c6 Rf8 34.b4 Nd6 35.Nc3 Bc4 36.Rd1 Nc8 37.f3 Be6 38.Re1 Kf7 39.Kh2 Ke7 40.Kg3 Rf5 41.Ne4 Kd8 42.Nc5 Bd5 43.Kg4 g6 44.b5 Kc7 

2. +/=  (0.65): 15...Rfd8 16.Qe3 dxc5 17.dxc5 f5 18.Rac1 Be8 19.Nd4 a5 20.b3 h6 21.f4 Qf7 22.Red1 Ne7 23.Qg3 Nd5 24.Na4 Rab8 25.h4 Qd7 26.Qf3 Bf7 27.Nb2 Qe8 28.Rd2 Bh5 29.Qf2 Ra8 30.g3 Qd7 31.a3 Qe8 32.Rd3 Ra6 33.Qe1 Qg6 34.Qf1 Qf7 35.Rd2 Rda8 36.Nc4 Qg6 37.Qf2 Rd8 38.Nb2 Qe8 39.Nc4 Rb8 

3. +/=  (0.65): 15...Rfb8 16.cxd6 cxd6 17.Ne4 dxe5 18.Nxe5 a5 19.Nc5 Nxe5 20.Rxe5 Be8 21.b3 Rd8 22.Qe3 h6 23.Rc1 Rd5 24.Rc4 Rad8 25.Re4 Qc7 26.Qd3 Qe7 27.Qg3 Rc8 28.Qe3 Qd6 29.Ra4 Ra8 30.Re5 Qc7 31.Qg3 Qd8 32.Re4 Qe7 33.Qf4 Qd8 34.Rc4 Qe7 35.Rc1 Rad8 36.Qe3 Ra8 37.Rg4 Kh8 38.Re1 Qc7 

4. +/-  (0.72): 15...a5 16.Ne4 dxe5 17.Nxe5 Rfd8 18.Nxg6 hxg6 19.Rad1 Bc8 20.Ng5 a4 21.Nf3 Ba6 22.Qc3 Bb5 23.Re4 Rd5 24.Ne5 g5 25.Rde1 Re8 26.Nf3 Qd7 27.Qc1 Qe7 28.Rg4 f6 29.Qc2 Qd7 30.b3 axb3 31.Qxb3 Ba6 32.a4 Kf7 33.Re3 Kg8 34.Rge4 Kf7 35.Re1 Kg8 36.R4e3 Kf7 37.Qc2 Rf5 38.Kh2 Qd5 39.Kg1 Bc4 40.Qc3 Rf4 
15...dxc5 seems best but Black struggles still probably.
Peter.

Look
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:14 pm
Location: Iran
Full name: Mehdi Amini
Contact:

Re: Correct contination for black

Post by Look » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:17 am

peter wrote: 15...dxc5 seems best but Black struggles still probably.
Using a weak chess laptop, I expected that after:

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo ""]
[BlackElo ""]
[ECO ""]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4rk1/2pbqppp/p1ppp1n1/2P1P3/3P4/2N2N1P/PP1Q1PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 15"]
[CurrentPosition "r4rk1/2p1qppp/b1p1p1n1/p1P1P3/4N3/5N1P/PP1Q1PP1/3RR1K1 w - - 2 19"]

15...dxc5 16.dxc5 Bc8 17.Rad1 a5 18.Ne4 Ba6 *
[/pgn]

[D]r4rk1/2p1qppp/b1p1p1n1/p1P1P3/4N3/5N1P/PP1Q1PP1/3RR1K1 w - - 2 19

I guessed white can play Re3, but strangely for me:

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo ""]
[BlackElo ""]
[ECO ""]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4rk1/2p1qppp/b1p1p1n1/p1P1P3/4N3/5N1P/PP1Q1PP1/3RR1K1 w - - 2 19"]
[CurrentPosition "r4rk1/2p1qppp/2p1p1n1/p1PbP3/4N3/4RN1P/PPQ2PP1/3R2K1 w - - 6 21"]

19.Re3 Bc4 20.Qc2 Bd5 *
[/pgn]

[D]r4rk1/2p1qppp/2p1p1n1/p1PbP3/4N3/4RN1P/PPQ2PP1/3R2K1 w - - 6 21

The mighty bishop on d5 guarantees black a holdable position IMHO.

peter
Posts: 1853
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Correct contination for black

Post by peter » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:50 pm

Hi Mehdi!
Look wrote:
I expected that after:

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo ""]
[BlackElo ""]
[ECO ""]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4rk1/2pbqppp/p1ppp1n1/2P1P3/3P4/2N2N1P/PP1Q1PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 15"]
[CurrentPosition "r4rk1/2p1qppp/b1p1p1n1/p1P1P3/4N3/5N1P/PP1Q1PP1/3RR1K1 w - - 2 19"]

15...dxc5 16.dxc5 Bc8 17.Rad1 a5 18.Ne4 Ba6 *
[/pgn]

[D]r4rk1/2p1qppp/b1p1p1n1/p1P1P3/4N3/5N1P/PP1Q1PP1/3RR1K1 w - - 2 19

I guessed white can play Re3, but strangely for me:

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[WhiteElo ""]
[BlackElo ""]
[ECO ""]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4rk1/2p1qppp/b1p1p1n1/p1P1P3/4N3/5N1P/PP1Q1PP1/3RR1K1 w - - 2 19"]
[CurrentPosition "r4rk1/2p1qppp/2p1p1n1/p1PbP3/4N3/4RN1P/PPQ2PP1/3R2K1 w - - 6 21"]

19.Re3 Bc4 20.Qc2 Bd5 *
[/pgn]

[D]r4rk1/2p1qppp/2p1p1n1/p1PbP3/4N3/4RN1P/PPQ2PP1/3R2K1 w - - 6 21

The mighty bishop on d5 guarantees black a holdable position IMHO.
After backwarding your short lline to the position after 19.Re3, I get this output:

[d]r4rk1/2p1qppp/b1p1p1n1/p1P1P3/4N3/4RN1P/PP1Q1PP1/3R2K1 b - - 0 1
Analysis by Brainfish 180318 64 POPCNT:

19...Rfd8 20.Qc2 Bb5 21.Rxd8+ Qxd8 22.a4 Ba6 23.Ned2 Nf4 24.Nb3 Qd5 25.Nbd4 Rb8 26.b3 Rb4 27.Qd2 h6 28.Kh2 Bf1 29.g3 Ng6 30.Qc3 Kh7 31.h4 Ne7 32.Nc2 Rb8 33.Ncd4 Rb4
= (0.00) Depth: 38/43 00:01:35 2169MN

After stepping back one more ply, this one:

[d]r4rk1/2p1qppp/b1p1p1n1/p1P1P3/4N3/5N1P/PP1Q1PP1/3RR1K1 w - - 0 1
Analysis by Brainfish 180318 64 POPCNT:

19.Nd4 Qh4 20.Qc3 Rfd8 21.Kh2 a4 22.g3 Qh5 23.f4 Ne7 24.Rd2 Nd5 25.Qc1 Bb5 26.Ng5 Qg6 27.Ngf3 Ne7 28.Nh4 Qh5 29.a3 Rd7 30.Qc2 Rb8 31.Ng2 Nd5 32.Qe4 Qh6 33.Rg1 Qg6 34.Qf3 Qh6 35.Rgd1 g6 36.Qe4 Qf8 37.Rc2 Qh6 38.Qe1 Qh5 39.g4 Qh6 40.Qe4 Kh8 41.Qf3 Qf8
+/- (0.81) Depth: 40/74 00:05:48 7889MN

So 19.Re3(?!) doesn't seem to be the best continuation for White here, does it?
Peter.

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