Diep 2.0

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Adam Hair
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Re: Diep 2.0

Post by Adam Hair » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:54 pm

Ovyron wrote:
BrendanJNorman wrote:Does an active legal copyright currently exist for Diep? And would Vincent gain anything in court, assuming an initial cease and desist notice was ignored?
Exactly! The judge would laugh and fine Vincent for making the court waste time.

The main thing is that Vincent can't sue for damages because he's not selling Diep!
This argument seems to ignore the possibility of Vincent selling Diep in the future. The free distribution of Diep now would surely harm future sales.

Also, there seems to be a question about legality of possessing a copy of Diep 2.0. It is not clear anybody has the right to use it.

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Rebel
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Re: Diep 2.0

Post by Rebel » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:11 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:
hgm wrote:
syzygy wrote:
BrendanJNorman wrote:Have the owners of Houdini, Komodo etc taken ANYONE to court over it?
Oh my...

You believe that something illegal becomes legal when people go unpunished.
You believe that valid copyrights somehow cease to exist when they are being violated.

Believe what you want, but that does not make it true.

But I do hope that the moderators here take action to stop the propagation of your lies on this senstivie topic.
Well, earlier postings of this guy have revealed he considers himself above the law in any case, because he is living in China, beyond the reach of any western law enforcement. And we all know how much respect for copyright exists in China.

I am not sure what my task as moderator is in this. If people want to confess their criminal tendencies, it is not really against the charter.

Things are of course exactly as Ronald says; copyright expires only a long time after someone's death, and the fact that you can get away with a crime unpunished, and others actually do just that, doesn't make it anything less of a crime.

So for now I will leave it at a warning to all readers that they should not be fooled by pleas to engage in thievery.
Another Dutch guy runs in to defend the cause - this is like clockwork. :lol:

And he also puts words into my mouth, rather than trying to understand what my assertion truly was.

Above the law? Beyond the reach of Western law enforcement?

:roll:

If you are racist toward Chinese, that's one thing (it's common for you guys, I've noticed), but don't pretend you understand why I am not.

I shared a link of an engine which I still had on a ten year old HDD, and when I realized that the author didn't approve, I took it down.

This is the reality of what happened.

Any honest person reading can see this clearly.

The rest is Dutch guys creating straw-man, revealing their racism and trying to twist my words...

...which were nothing more than queries to the community - not my common practice.

If you want to preach about piracy, go over to immortal and do it.

Many of your members are already there.
But in this case the Dutch miraculously stand together united :lol:

Copyright is copyright.

leavenfish
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Re: Diep 2.0

Post by leavenfish » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:19 am

Ulysses P. wrote:

I also approve of piracy in places of the world when the thing being pirated can't be bought at all, where again, no damage is taking place, because it's the fault of the author for not selling there.
That is the most F'd up thing I've heard today. But perhaps it helps verify some of my reactions to other things you have said... :cry:

BrendanJNorman
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Re: Diep 2.0

Post by BrendanJNorman » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:33 am

Rebel wrote:
BrendanJNorman wrote:
hgm wrote:
syzygy wrote:
BrendanJNorman wrote:Have the owners of Houdini, Komodo etc taken ANYONE to court over it?
Oh my...

You believe that something illegal becomes legal when people go unpunished.
You believe that valid copyrights somehow cease to exist when they are being violated.

Believe what you want, but that does not make it true.

But I do hope that the moderators here take action to stop the propagation of your lies on this senstivie topic.
Well, earlier postings of this guy have revealed he considers himself above the law in any case, because he is living in China, beyond the reach of any western law enforcement. And we all know how much respect for copyright exists in China.

I am not sure what my task as moderator is in this. If people want to confess their criminal tendencies, it is not really against the charter.

Things are of course exactly as Ronald says; copyright expires only a long time after someone's death, and the fact that you can get away with a crime unpunished, and others actually do just that, doesn't make it anything less of a crime.

So for now I will leave it at a warning to all readers that they should not be fooled by pleas to engage in thievery.
Another Dutch guy runs in to defend the cause - this is like clockwork. :lol:

And he also puts words into my mouth, rather than trying to understand what my assertion truly was.

Above the law? Beyond the reach of Western law enforcement?

:roll:

If you are racist toward Chinese, that's one thing (it's common for you guys, I've noticed), but don't pretend you understand why I am not.

I shared a link of an engine which I still had on a ten year old HDD, and when I realized that the author didn't approve, I took it down.

This is the reality of what happened.

Any honest person reading can see this clearly.

The rest is Dutch guys creating straw-man, revealing their racism and trying to twist my words...

...which were nothing more than queries to the community - not my common practice.

If you want to preach about piracy, go over to immortal and do it.

Many of your members are already there.
But in this case the Dutch miraculously stand together united :lol:

Copyright is copyright.
Of course Ed, but you're standing together against a strawman they created themselves.

Never once did I say that I condone copyright infringement or sharing of Vincent's engine.

1. Wouldn't I have left the link active if I didn't care about Vincent's feelings on the matter?

2. Wouldn't I also share it with the thousands of guys on my mailing list?

3. Wouldn't I have a history of doing such things given my rather large audience, who would be hungry for such sharing?

Yes, Yes and Yes.

Your compatriots in their most "gentlemanly" manner, deliberately misrepresented what I'd asserted, insulted a racial group (Chinese), insulted engine testers (calling them "idiots") and insulted me personally - all within the single thread.

If they'd read my words for meaning and comprehension (or if they were not so disingenuous) it's absolutely obvious that what I was questioning was the apparent double-standards that exist on this forum.

Not whether copyright infringement is or isn't justified.

None of these guys say a word at the numerous "forums" around the web (which we all know about) where Diep has been illegally downloaded for YEARS (going by past threads I just checked), as well as Komodo, Houdini, and even your work Ed.

They only swoop down like vultures in the safe swamp that is TalkChess forum - somewhere they have complete control.

They swoop down in a meaningless thread where I mistakenly shared a 20 year old engine (thinking there's no harm in it), then quickly retracted it (when learning of the author's feelings).

Hostile, grumpy old men like this are the reason there is so little interest in computer chess from the wider chess market.

I myself know people VERY interested in engines, who came to TalkChess as a guest and within 20 minutes or so of reading thought "forget this garbage".

They've told me about this.

All they seen was narrow-minded, arrogant guys bullying others.

I am doing more myself to convert the average chess player into a computer chess enthusiast - in the 2 years my site has been up - than some of these guys have in 20 years of releasing their engines to a tiny group of "testers".

There are thousands of average chessplayers reading computer chess articles, challenging chess engines and otherwise embracing our hobby - because of me.

This guy refused to release his engine (even for a price!), and this is fine, but calling his fans "idiots" is morally worse than my sharing the engine.

Judging my character based on the country I live in is called racism - another very sensitive word these days, but applicable in this case.

There was never a strong opposition to his copyright claim from me - you can all see this once free from your very clear cognitive biases.

Last night I received an email from a well-wisher (not a TC member) who, having read this thread, urged me to leave this heavily polluted forum - which is what I will do.

P.S. None of this is against you Ed, who I have admired for years already.

Here's a game by my new ProDeo 2.6 "Attacker Li" personality. :wink:

[pgn][Event "Computer Chess Tournament"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2018.01.27"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Ktulu 3.8"]
[Black "ProDeo 2.6 Attacker Li"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A29"]
[PlyCount "72"]

1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 Bb4 5. Nd5 e4 6. Nxb4 Nxb4 7. Nd4 O-O 8.
Nc2 Nxc2+ 9. Qxc2 d5 10. cxd5 Qxd5 11. Bg2 Bg4 12. h3 Bf3 13. exf3 exf3 14. Bf1
Rfe8+ 15. Kd1 Re2 16. Rh2 Ne4 17. Bxe2 fxe2+ 18. Kxe2 Re8 19. d4 Nxg3+ 20. Kd3
Qe4+ 21. Kc3 Ne2+ 22. Kd2 Qf4+ 23. Kd1 Qxh2 24. Qxe2 Qh1+ 25. Kd2 Rxe2+ 26.
Kxe2 g5 27. b3 h5 28. Bb2 Qxh3 29. d5 h4 30. Bd4 Qg4+ 31. Kd3 Qf5+ 32. Kc3 Qxd5
33. Re1 f6 34. Re3 g4 35. f3 g3 36. f4 c5 0-1[/pgn]

Like OpenTal, it's mainly tuned for style (and human training), but produces the occasional brilliancy against engines as well. Happy to share the .per file if you like.

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Greg Strong
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Re: Diep 2.0

Post by Greg Strong » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:39 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:None of these guys say a word at the numerous "forums" around the web (which we all know about) where Diep has been illegally downloaded for YEARS (going by past threads I just checked), as well as Komodo, Houdini, and even your work Ed.

They only swoop down like vultures in the safe swamp that is TalkChess forum - somewhere they have complete control.
Well, the moderators have accepted the responsibility and agreed to volunteer their time moderating TalkChess - a difficult and truly thankless job. It seems you expect them to expend further time and effort to try to police other forums outside their control? And, further, that since they do not attempt to moderate other forums, that makes them hypocrites for moderating this one? At least that's how I interpret your response, but please correct me. I certainly wouldn't want to put words in your mouth or give birth to straw men.
BrendanJNorman wrote:Judging my character based on the country I live in is called racism - another very sensitive word these days, but applicable in this case.
Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see any judging of your character based on your country of origin. What I saw was an observation that you are unlikely to be pursued for any violations of copyright because you reside in China. I think it is fair to say that the Government of China expends little or no effort to enforce foreign copyrights. Speaking of what your government will or will not do - even wild speculation about your government - is NOT racism. I hate lots of things that my government does. I hope people have the good sense to not judge me by the acts of my government. And, even if people hate my government, I would not take it personally.

I would also point out that you have also invoked race in this discussion, to wit, Germans and Dutch, as part-and-parcel of your dissatisfaction of how moderation is handled. I'm not sure that's racism either - frankly that word is overused beyond belief - but in my view you've come much closer to racism than they have.

P.S. I'm neither German nor Dutch :lol:

BrendanJNorman
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Re: Diep 2.0

Post by BrendanJNorman » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:07 am

Greg Strong wrote:
BrendanJNorman wrote:None of these guys say a word at the numerous "forums" around the web (which we all know about) where Diep has been illegally downloaded for YEARS (going by past threads I just checked), as well as Komodo, Houdini, and even your work Ed.

They only swoop down like vultures in the safe swamp that is TalkChess forum - somewhere they have complete control.
Well, the moderators have accepted the responsibility and agreed to volunteer their time moderating TalkChess - a difficult and truly thankless job. It seems you expect them to expend further time and effort to try to police other forums outside their control? And, further, that since they do not attempt to moderate other forums, that makes them hypocrites for moderating this one? At least that's how I interpret your response, but please correct me. I certainly wouldn't want to put words in your mouth or give birth to straw men.
BrendanJNorman wrote:Judging my character based on the country I live in is called racism - another very sensitive word these days, but applicable in this case.
Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see any judging of your character based on your country of origin. What I saw was an observation that you are unlikely to be pursued for any violations of copyright because you reside in China. I think it is fair to say that the Government of China expends little or no effort to enforce foreign copyrights. Speaking of what your government will or will not do - even wild speculation about your government - is NOT racism. I hate lots of things that my government does. I hope people have the good sense to not judge me by the acts of my government. And, even if people hate my government, I would not take it personally.

I would also point out that you have also invoked race in this discussion, to wit, Germans and Dutch, as part-and-parcel of your dissatisfaction of how moderation is handled. I'm not sure that's racism either - frankly that word is overused beyond belief - but in my view you've come much closer to racism than they have.

P.S. I'm neither German nor Dutch :lol:
Hi Gregory,

I've already spent (read: wasted) far too much time debating this nonsense, so if you'll allow me, i'll respond in a simplistic fashion.

1. Whether moderation is a thankless job or not is irrelevant.

As a moderator:

- You should remain impartial, especially as pertains to nationality (these guys are MUCH less aggressive when the "victim" is not one of their own.)

- You should not see a crime where there is none - see it where the IS one (other forums they ALSO frequent regularly).

- You should not twist a person's words in order to fit your intended narrative or to intensify their perceived guilt.

- You should not resort to ad hominem attacks.

All of this is present in this thread, whether you want to be honest or not about it.

And whether thankless or not, this is the job of a moderator. Don't do it if you're too tempted by tyrannical impulses.

Assuming (and publicly stating) that I think I'm above the law because I live in China is not only offensive to Chinese people, but also unethical for a moderator.

It is an example of "head-hopping" where the accuser assumes he can read the mind of another and makes assumptions based on his own arrogant biases.

Stating that I'm "confessing criminal tendencies" over the innocent (a crime requires intent) sharing, and subsequent retraction of a 20 year old chess engine is what's called "Appealing to Extremes" and is deliberate deception.

Appeal to Extremes:

Description: Erroneously attempting to make a reasonable argument into an absurd one, by taking the argument to the extremes.

Example #1:

There is no way those Girl Scouts could have sold all those cases of cookies in one hour. If they did, they would have to make $500 in one hour, which, based on an 8 hour day is over a million dollars a year. That is more than most lawyers, doctors, and successful business people make!

Explanation: The Girl Scouts worked just for one hour -- not 40 per week for a year. Suggesting the extreme leads to an absurd conclusion; that Girl Scouts are among the highest paid people in the world. Not to mention, there is a whole troop of them doing the work, not just one girl.

(There's a free lesson on clear thinking for these guys.)

2. There is no "closer to racism", Greg - there is racist and not racist.

Just as there is truth and untruth.

If you dig around, these same group of guys (the gang, as I refer to them) have made derogatory comments about China, and my living here regularly, especially in the so-called "Thinkers" forum.

So using China as a knife to shove in my side whilst debating an unrelated topic, reveals implicit racism.

Because there was absolutely no objective reason to mention it.

Since I never even showed any intention to infringe upon copyright claims.

I merely asked questions related to it.

My mentioning that the hostile personalities from this site are usually Germans or Dutch guys is absolutely not racist - it is statement of a truth.

Everybody has witnessed this, but most lack the courage to admit it.

3. I know you are not German or Dutch. But you're from a place where people can be convinced that the U.S stealing oil from gulf countries = justified, whilst stealing patents from U.S companies = international crime.

I only care to debate some sort of collective morality, with those who are impartial, and free from nationalistic alignment.

P.S. Here are some new, thought provoking descriptions which, I wonder if someone here will find of interest. :lol:

Circle Jerk

“Circle Jerk” is a pejorative slang term referring to a positive feedback loop which occurs when an idea, belief or meme that is already customary within an online community (people are stealing our engines, swiping our code, releasing clones! :( Must be the evil Chinese commies!) becomes re-iterated and rewarded in a perpetual cycle, giving rise to redundancy, clichés and karma whoring. This phenomenon is typically observed in communities consisting of self-contained forums devoted to specific interests, beliefs or subcultures.

Karma Whore

“Karma Whore” is a pejorative label used to describe someone who seeks to raise one’s social standing within an online community by pandering to the stereotypical prejudices or trends that are widely accepted by its members ("I completely have no idea what Brendan is saying, but the....errr Dutch guy is right! Because he's been here longer!"), including activities like reposting popular content and linking to websites with overwhelmingly positive reputation.

Don't take yourself so seriously guys - this is the rigid mentality that starts world wars.

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Evert
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Re: Diep 2.0

Post by Evert » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:59 am

hgm wrote: Things are of course exactly as Ronald says; copyright expires only a long time after someone's death, and the fact that you can get away with a crime unpunished, and others actually do just that, doesn't make it anything less of a crime.
As an aside: from what I remember, there have been cases where failure to defend a copyright has lead to judges ruling that the copyright is now void.
I think that was under common law jurisdiction (in the US), and it's not clear to me how that would translate to other parts of the world. International copyright laws are a bit of a mess anyway.

Dirt
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Re: Diep 2.0

Post by Dirt » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:09 am

Evert wrote:As an aside: from what I remember, there have been cases where failure to defend a copyright has lead to judges ruling that the copyright is now void.
I think that was under common law jurisdiction (in the US), and it's not clear to me how that would translate to other parts of the world. International copyright laws are a bit of a mess anyway.
I've never heard of that. Trademarks have to be defended but I don't think copyrights do.
Deasil is the right way to go.

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hgm
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Re: Diep 2.0

Post by hgm » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:00 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:Assuming (and publicly stating) that I think I'm above the law because I live in China is not only offensive to Chinese people, but also unethical for a moderator.
You made a big show of playing the 'murdered innocence', but there is no assumption here on my part. The posting where you boast that you can publicly accuse me of being a child molester with impunity, because you are living in China, outside the reach of any legal repercussions I could muster, is still here on this very board, for everyone to see who would take an interest.

Your own words have condemned you... I merely impartially point out that fact.

BrendanJNorman
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Re: Diep 2.0

Post by BrendanJNorman » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:40 am

hgm wrote:
BrendanJNorman wrote:Assuming (and publicly stating) that I think I'm above the law because I live in China is not only offensive to Chinese people, but also unethical for a moderator.
You made a big show of playing the 'murdered innocence', but there is no assumption here on my part. The posting where you boast that you can publicly accuse me of being a child molester with impunity, because you are living in China, outside the reach of any legal repercussions I could muster, is still here on this very board, for everyone to see who would take an interest.

Your own words have condemned you... I merely impartially point out that fact.
B.S. You are taking my words and intentions and misrepresenting them again.

If I remember rightly, in that case, you were doing as you often do...resorting to extremes...and talked some garbage about having me "locked up in prison" for using the Deep Synapze engine or some ridiculous thing.

I said something like: "Yeah, you are gonna get the SWAT team to kick down my door in China to take me to jail..." (or whatever)...

And the discussion continued...

You said AS YOU OFTEN DO (and we see ample evidence of this in this very thread) some misleading remarks about me (hopping into my head and reading my thoughts/intentions/moral...AS YOU OFTEN DO...and announcing your "finding" publicly - some B.S about "he thinks he can use stolen property without consequences...blah blah blah...") and I made the remark that I could also say ANYTHING about you (yes, even being a child molester) and there would be nothing you can do about it, regardless of whether it is true..

This was to illustrate to you (which you evidently missed) that one can say whatever one likes about another person, but that doesn't make it true.

Ironically, you became fearful of your own sharpest sword once I mentioned (the HYPOTHETICAL possibility) that it could also be turned upon you as well.

...but regardless...

The most important thing is...

Which one of us should be setting an example as moderator and (I would assume), behaving as a role model on this forum?

I'm not asking anybody to think like me, behave like me or follow my lead...

YOU are, so YOU set the example, not me.

If I am rude to you, people may think as they like, I'm nobody in your little TalkChess world.

But when a moderator swings his sword in an unfair way, resorts to ad hominem attacks, deliberately twists somebodies words in an attempt to publicly shame them, and lacks impartiality in his decision making, this tells all members that they cannot trust you in the case of a conflict.

You will stand with your own circle of bullies, and they know this.

Locked