TalkChess.com

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:

Tobber wrote:

APassionForCriminalJustic wrote:

shrapnel wrote:People get so involved in discussions about ELO, TBs and TimeControls and other technicalities, they forget the basics of chess.
If you just go through the Games as a chess player, its completely obvious that Stockfish was completely out-classed and simply didn't have a clue about what was going on.
It is obvious to any average chess player that AlphaZero was playing at a completely different level and was seeing the Chessboard as a whole in a completely different way than Stockfish.
You can grumble about the version of SF used, TC used and anything else, but in my humble opinion, AlphaZero was so completely superior to Stockfish, that it wouldn't have made any significant difference to the outcome.
Its the Dawn of a New Age in computer chess, whether the nay sayers agree or not.
Of course, unfortunately since DeepMind isn't showing much interest in chess, the voices of these negative people will only grow stronger.
Soon they will claim that there was nothing like AlphaZero and it was all a big hoax.
But the people who really understand what Chess is about, have seen what actually happened on the ChessBoard and know the Truth.

You need to remember that the conditions were not at all favorable to Stockfish. This is not about being negative. It's a fact. Stockfish only had one minute to move. That in and of itself is certainly going to make it weaker. Then you can talk about the hash file size. But to me AlphaZero clearly had a hardware advantage running on 4 TPUs. Yes - I am sure that this point has been made multiple times but people seem to agree that those 4 TPUs are many, many times more powerful versus Stockfish's 64-core rig. Team Google should have had more balls. They should have made Stockfish as absolutely as strong as possible. That way - you cover all of your tracks and ultimately diffuse the inevitable skepticism.

Despite all of this Stockfish still had nearly 80 draws. That is far from your claimed whole new different play of chess. Maybe AlphaZero is the future of computer chess. But not anytime soon... good luck affording the particular hardware used... plus AlphaZero is not really that impressive when you do consider its massive state-of-the-art hardware. Don't be blind...

I think you are blinded by your interest in chess. Deepmind/Google has in my opinion no interest at all in chess. They used SF, and similar for Shogi and Go, to prove that their methods work.

They used an official download for SF and no development version, make sense to me.

Trained A0 until it was stronger and then showed the world what they can do. Don't you see the whole point? In a few hours A0 was superior to an engine developed for many years by humans. Against a stronger chess engine they had just enhanced the training of A0.

And 1 minute per move, so what? Of course SF would be stronger with another time setting but so would A0, they took the decision and played games with that settings, same for both engines right? Why is it unfair with the same setting for both engines?

Opening books? A0 did beat SF when using an opening book, not a very advanced opening book but similar to what we saw in TCEC. 50 games as white and 50 as black, what is unfair with that?

Last point the hardware difference. The complaints here are nonsense, they have showed that their combination of hardware and neural networks are better than traditional software development on traditional hardware. (Before you come shouting about other software I should add for some types of software). There's no interest in being "fair", they are interested in the commercial potential with their combination of hardware and NN and chess engines are totally uninteresting in this respect.

/John

They have showed nothing.
They made laughing stocks of themselves, comparing watermelons to blackberries.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:25 days after the glorious event, so precisely 4*150 hours later, when Alpha should obviously be over 15-20 000 elos, STILL not a word from Google about this historic achievement...

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:I suggest a return match with SF being the home team.

Conditions:
- Alpha plays on 1 GPU
- a version of Alpha with no opening knowledge takes part
- TC using increment
- adapted SF plays on 2048 cores, but maybe 8192 is better
- huge HT for SF
- SF has the right of repeating the same winning opening line all over again

After the 100 game match, played at the SF premises(wherever that is, maybe somewhere on the Framework), SF team will declare the result and officially publish 10 games.

What do you think the result will be?

Rebel wrote:.........................................................
What has been claimed by Deepmind is monstrous, they come along and wipe out 50 years of CC development by thousands of people in 4 hours of computer time without (as they claim) any domain knowledge, not even piece values.... that's beyond (my) understanding and (my) imagination and if true CC programming has changed forever, it will be NN programming from now on for those who seriously want to compete.

What's also is important is the source of the info. If it came from someone unknown it likely would have been received with laughter and jeer. But it comes from a company with a reputation of innovation and when they pick a project it's always a big challenge, as this one. It's the reputation that makes people think they are speaking the truth even if the paper needs a lot to be desired.

Rodolfo Leoni wrote:

Rebel wrote:.........................................................
What has been claimed by Deepmind is monstrous, they come along and wipe out 50 years of CC development by thousands of people in 4 hours of computer time without (as they claim) any domain knowledge, not even piece values.... that's beyond (my) understanding and (my) imagination and if true CC programming has changed forever, it will be NN programming from now on for those who seriously want to compete.

What's also is important is the source of the info. If it came from someone unknown it likely would have been received with laughter and jeer. But it comes from a company with a reputation of innovation and when they pick a project it's always a big challenge, as this one. It's the reputation that makes people think they are speaking the truth even if the paper needs a lot to be desired.

Just a conjecture from a prophane: while building its Monte Carlo statistics and propagating all those millions game scores (and maybe other parameters) back to start positions, engine could have a code section for building its own evaluation parameters too. Some kind of TD-Lambda, but from all starting parameters set to 0.

The question is: what's Deep Mind's target? It'd be a nonsense to advertise all these "events" with Shogi, Go, and Chess without having plans for delivering a product or a service. And I can't think at such a powerful hardware only for board games so I guess they plan to offer a package which could include a new OS, lots of utilities in many fields, and maybe tools for programmers. Will it be an elite product? I think it'll start as an expensive, but affordable product, as it was for Tesla cars. Then, after some years, it could become cheap enough for most people.

Meanwhile, Xeon and Ryzen CPU prices could drop...

Michael Sherwin wrote:

Rodolfo Leoni wrote:

Rebel wrote:.........................................................
What has been claimed by Deepmind is monstrous, they come along and wipe out 50 years of CC development by thousands of people in 4 hours of computer time without (as they claim) any domain knowledge, not even piece values.... that's beyond (my) understanding and (my) imagination and if true CC programming has changed forever, it will be NN programming from now on for those who seriously want to compete.

What's also is important is the source of the info. If it came from someone unknown it likely would have been received with laughter and jeer. But it comes from a company with a reputation of innovation and when they pick a project it's always a big challenge, as this one. It's the reputation that makes people think they are speaking the truth even if the paper needs a lot to be desired.

Just a conjecture from a prophane: while building its Monte Carlo statistics and propagating all those millions game scores (and maybe other parameters) back to start positions, engine could have a code section for building its own evaluation parameters too. Some kind of TD-Lambda, but from all starting parameters set to 0.

The question is: what's Deep Mind's target? It'd be a nonsense to advertise all these "events" with Shogi, Go, and Chess without having plans for delivering a product or a service. And I can't think at such a powerful hardware only for board games so I guess they plan to offer a package which could include a new OS, lots of utilities in many fields, and maybe tools for programmers. Will it be an elite product? I think it'll start as an expensive, but affordable product, as it was for Tesla cars. Then, after some years, it could become cheap enough for most people.

Meanwhile, Xeon and Ryzen CPU prices could drop...

Hi Rodolfo, From someone that is barely alive but I can be rebuilt. IMHO, Google's plans for Deepmind go far beyond board games. They started with board games to nail down the principles of RL, MCTS and the deepmind NN and to show proof of concept before they spend billions more turning it into something that even Skynet would fear. In the Bible the Image of the Beast is an artificial construct that can learn and talk. Deepmind may be the predecessor to the Image of the Beast. Anyway Google is not interested in the paltry sums it can make by selling games, IMHO.

Look at my prediction here and tell me if I nailed it or not. I predicted A0!

Rebel wrote: What has been claimed by Deepmind is monstrous, they come along and wipe out 50 years of CC development by thousands of people in 4 hours of computer time without (as they claim) any domain knowledge, not even piece values.... that's beyond (my) understanding and (my) imagination and if true CC programming has changed forever, it will be NN programming from now on for those who seriously want to compete.

Rebel wrote:

Michael Sherwin wrote:

Rodolfo Leoni wrote:

Rebel wrote:.........................................................
What has been claimed by Deepmind is monstrous, they come along and wipe out 50 years of CC development by thousands of people in 4 hours of computer time without (as they claim) any domain knowledge, not even piece values.... that's beyond (my) understanding and (my) imagination and if true CC programming has changed forever, it will be NN programming from now on for those who seriously want to compete.

What's also is important is the source of the info. If it came from someone unknown it likely would have been received with laughter and jeer. But it comes from a company with a reputation of innovation and when they pick a project it's always a big challenge, as this one. It's the reputation that makes people think they are speaking the truth even if the paper needs a lot to be desired.

Just a conjecture from a prophane: while building its Monte Carlo statistics and propagating all those millions game scores (and maybe other parameters) back to start positions, engine could have a code section for building its own evaluation parameters too. Some kind of TD-Lambda, but from all starting parameters set to 0.

The question is: what's Deep Mind's target? It'd be a nonsense to advertise all these "events" with Shogi, Go, and Chess without having plans for delivering a product or a service. And I can't think at such a powerful hardware only for board games so I guess they plan to offer a package which could include a new OS, lots of utilities in many fields, and maybe tools for programmers. Will it be an elite product? I think it'll start as an expensive, but affordable product, as it was for Tesla cars. Then, after some years, it could become cheap enough for most people.

Meanwhile, Xeon and Ryzen CPU prices could drop...

Hi Rodolfo, From someone that is barely alive but I can be rebuilt. IMHO, Google's plans for Deepmind go far beyond board games. They started with board games to nail down the principles of RL, MCTS and the deepmind NN and to show proof of concept before they spend billions more turning it into something that even Skynet would fear. In the Bible the Image of the Beast is an artificial construct that can learn and talk. Deepmind may be the predecessor to the Image of the Beast. Anyway Google is not interested in the paltry sums it can make by selling games, IMHO.

Aha, AZ = 666, how clever

Look at my prediction here and tell me if I nailed it or not. I predicted A0!

HAL on a cell phone would crush AZ in a 100 game match with 28 wins and no single loss.

a 57 the year that I was born
b 60
c 63
d 66 
e 69
f 72
g 75
h 78
i 81
j 84
k 87
l 90
m 93
n 96
o 99
p 102
q 105
r 108
s 111
t 114
u 117
v 120
w 123

S 111 + h 78 + e 69 + r 108 + w 123 + i 81 + n 96 = 666

Michael Sherwin wrote:

Rodolfo Leoni wrote:

Rebel wrote:.........................................................
What has been claimed by Deepmind is monstrous, they come along and wipe out 50 years of CC development by thousands of people in 4 hours of computer time without (as they claim) any domain knowledge, not even piece values.... that's beyond (my) understanding and (my) imagination and if true CC programming has changed forever, it will be NN programming from now on for those who seriously want to compete.

What's also is important is the source of the info. If it came from someone unknown it likely would have been received with laughter and jeer. But it comes from a company with a reputation of innovation and when they pick a project it's always a big challenge, as this one. It's the reputation that makes people think they are speaking the truth even if the paper needs a lot to be desired.

Just a conjecture from a prophane: while building its Monte Carlo statistics and propagating all those millions game scores (and maybe other parameters) back to start positions, engine could have a code section for building its own evaluation parameters too. Some kind of TD-Lambda, but from all starting parameters set to 0.

The question is: what's Deep Mind's target? It'd be a nonsense to advertise all these "events" with Shogi, Go, and Chess without having plans for delivering a product or a service. And I can't think at such a powerful hardware only for board games so I guess they plan to offer a package which could include a new OS, lots of utilities in many fields, and maybe tools for programmers. Will it be an elite product? I think it'll start as an expensive, but affordable product, as it was for Tesla cars. Then, after some years, it could become cheap enough for most people.

Meanwhile, Xeon and Ryzen CPU prices could drop...

Hi Rodolfo, From someone that is barely alive but I can be rebuilt. IMHO, Google's plans for Deepmind go far beyond board games. They started with board games to nail down the principles of RL, MCTS and the deepmind NN and to show proof of concept before they spend billions more turning it into something that even Skynet would fear. In the Bible the Image of the Beast is an artificial construct that can learn and talk. Deepmind may be the predecessor to the Image of the Beast. Anyway Google is not interested in the paltry sums it can make by selling games, IMHO.

Look at my prediction here and tell me if I nailed it or not. I predicted A0!

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... at&start=0