Chess Performance enhancing drugs!

[Ponti]

I have basically reached fluency in Mandarin Chinese without study, simply by listening, asking a lot of questions and remembering everything.

I'm pretty sure the Nootropics helped a lot with this.

Dr Ponti, have you done much research into the particular compounds I mentioned?

I'd be interested to discuss more.

Well, I´m not so sure about how these kind of drugs can influence the results in language study. The _method_ is important. Please remember that in general languages that are written with symbols (sorry, I don´t know the exact word to use here) make use of the _right_ side of the brain first, which are very different when you compare them with occidental languages.

Unfortunately in Brazil we don´t have access to many of the drugs that you´ve mentioned. Modaphinil and methylphenidate are available here but they are drugs controlled by a special kind of receituary (yellow) which makes it very difficult to buy unless a neurologist or a psychiatrist prescribes it.

Because I don´t like them, in fact I have only a few patients using them. I mostly prescribe Modafinil for narcolepsy (which is a rare disorder) and methylphenidate for Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder patients that do not respond to less potent drugs.

I think the "Botwinnik approach" (even Fischer prepared to his match against Spassky using a similar method!)to chess is what we have to follow before a tournament.

I can´t imagine a professional chess player taking drugs other than caffeine... but who knows...

[Ponti]

So I suggest to take just a cup of coffee in the morning before the game.

With so many herbal teas available, I'm surprised to see a mental health expert suggest coffee. Is it really safe enough?

When you talk about caffeine, it really does matter the _amount_ you drink (or take - pills)...

In my local chess club we have GMs, IMs and FMs. All of them are used to drink caffeine and/or chocolate during their games or most often _before_ the games.

Well, Carlsen drinks orange juice. It has a high glycemic index (it raises your blood glucose really fast). In the WCh. against Karjakin he was not drinking orange juice... and the games were really hard games...

I myself tried orange juice, but it did nothing because my chess skills are poor...

[Ponti]

I always drink my coffee black & non sweetened. I just drink 2 in the morning. Anymore than that it burns me out. People would always say,"Lonnie, you look tired" and they were right. I felt tired and looked tired just from going over my 2 cup limit.

Try the Polgar method (5400 tactical positions...), it is much better than drinking coffee !

In fact, caffeine studies are controversial.
Caffeine protects against Alzheimer ? There are papers saying "yes, it does".
Caffeine is a vasoconstrictor, so you can die of a heart attack after drinking it ? Yes, it is possible... you can also have a cardiac arrythmia if you take too much caffeine... so, is it safe ?

There are people who take caffeine after 6 p.m. and can´t sleep well. If you do so when you´re in a tournament, maybe you´ll end losing 10 -15 ELO points...

[BrendanJNorman]

BTW, IMHO, nootropics are a myth, something utopic, at least the ones that are marketed today by the pharmaceutical industry.

Does this not confirm what I said about the pharmaceutical industry being monopolized?

They market the hell out of cheap crap that is ineffective and, cheap to produce and more difficult to reproduce (in home labs for example), while pretending that(and/or throwing stones at) the others.

Here are the words of a future MD who was studying medicine:

"MD in the making here-- but honestly, this is the first time I ve come across nootropics (3 months ago) and all these combinations that exist, I was pretty shocked that I had not remotely heard to this theory. However to me its interesting, but that doesnt mean I could answer your question.. they dont expose us this stuff at all! "

(source: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/49 ... ootropics/)

For the conclusive science on this, here's an interview with Dr Andrew Hill (PhD in Cognitive Neuroscience from UCLA and Lead Neuroscientist at truBrain)

https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/1 ... ootropics/

It's a very objective interview from a very qualified neuroscientist, so might be interesting to some readers.

[BrendanJNorman]

Well, I´m not so sure about how these kind of drugs can influence the results in language study.

Dramatically enhanced efficiency in transferal of vocabulary from short-term to long-term memory is the chemical factor.

Efficient linking/chunking of data ("If this already known word means x, does it also apply in combination with y? Yes/No> So...">Deduction. So this questioning/linking gives me access to not just to new words, but a range of new sentences due to a breakthrough in overall understanding of how the language works, is the method factor (in essence).

[MikeGL]

So I suggest to take just a cup of coffee in the morning before the game.

With so many herbal teas available, I'm surprised to see a mental health expert suggest coffee. Is it really safe enough?

When you talk about caffeine, it really does matter the _amount_ you drink (or take - pills)...

In my local chess club we have GMs, IMs and FMs. All of them are used to drink caffeine and/or chocolate during their games or most often _before_ the games.

Well, Carlsen drinks orange juice. It has a high glycemic index (it raises your blood glucose really fast). In the WCh. against Karjakin he was not drinking orange juice... and the games were really hard games...

I myself tried orange juice, but it did nothing because my chess skills are poor...

Ex world champion, the late Mikhail Tal, mentioned in one of
his interviews that he was drinking green tea before a game.
Japanese green tea, specifically. Not sure if that was
related to his tactical combinations which were mostly by intuition.

[Tony P.]

Tal's intake of green tea might have had an extra purpose, though - relief of the aftermath of his other usual drinks

[yanquis1972]

arent you being selective? its extremely unlikely you'd notice a dose of prozac or zoloft either.

Yes, I probably am being a little selective, but only in placing emphasis on those I have most experience with. I'll generally speak authoritatively on something I've personally used/experienced with. In regards to prozac or zoloft, I have no idea because I have no experience with it (do you? ), yet the first experience I found of prozac online said:

"Yesterday was my 3rd day taking 20mg of Prozac prescribed by the doctor for depression and major anxiety and panic attacks. ... 2nd day was good but woke up feeling anxious. Went to the restroom and had a panic attack."

Here's a horrible experience of somebody on zoloft:

"Feel asleep only to wake in a horrific panic attack. Arms and hands where numb and tingling and my brain was slow. More utterly terrifying was that I couldn't see. White and then flashes of vision broken. I had panic attack so like I've never endured and genuinely believed I was going blind"

There have been cases of unwise people misusing phenibut and having symptoms, but never as severe as these horrible stories and, only in cases of massive misuse.

That being said: I wouldn't recommend it for people who have no self-discipline or who are expecting some magic pill to make them "happy".

There's are reasons why this type of stuff is not available over the counter in most countries.

It's not that it's not useful, but that 1. It's difficult for a pharmaceutical company to monopolize and 2.It's difficult to prevent dumb people from acting dumb (i.e misusing something and hurting themselves).

I don't see how phenibut is not effectively a sedative, with very similar potential for abuse.

In terms of effects it is, but in terms of potential harm, it needs to be handled carefully, but it's most likely not gonna be life threatening like the others.

Similarly modafinil vs prescription ritalin or adderall - what's the real difference?? from the little ive read, its mostly down to how widespread the usage is.

Drugs are only widespread in relation to how the pharmaceutical industry is regulated in a given country.

Many prescription drugs which are illegal without a doctor's approval are substantially less harmful than alcohol, nicotine or even some over the counter drugs.

It simply depends on what can be monopolized and regulated, not what is effective vs what isn't.

This is the sad reality and the reason why people selling this stuff/submitting it for approval take people of power to very expensive banquets and make deals in order to get things approved. I've heard this myself from the mouths of a pharmaceutical sales person.

I was surprised when I visited Thailand in 2014 that they regularly use Piracetam as a hangover remedy, rather than a cognitive enhancer.

But it makes sense in a way...a hangover is caused by dehydration of the brain after all.

But again, this reflects how the regulation of pharmaceuticals, rather than objective merit generally (at least in many many cases) decides what becomes "widespread".

They both seem to be very serious drugs with a truckload of side effects, some of which clearly indicate very high abuse risk. Nothing subtle about them, unless you assume that everyone will take such drugs only as prescribed/at therapeutic doses, which of course is folly.

I'm not meaning to come across as condescending, or impolite John, but you admitted that you've only read little on the subject and I assume you also haven't tried modafinil.

So how can some of these opinions be any more than heresay or belief bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_bias)?

I have read dozens of case studies on modafinil, scoured over research and been taking it on and off for close to two years and have never experienced a single side-effect.

As mentioned elsewhere, this is just me and individuals should exercise due diligence prior to experimenting, but the assertion that this is an extremely dangerous substance is one i'd have to disagree with.

If a person lacks the maturity to discipline themselves or has an addictive personality, definitely they should avoid all of this stuff.

But this person should also avoid alcohol and tobacco too.

It's a strange culture we have where we can celebrate the widespread consumption of a neuro-toxin (which is exactly what alcohol is), while shaking our heads at people looking for ways to "hack" the brain and become smarter.

Personally, I love drinking and nootropics, although never at the same time!

i don't deny belief/confirmation bias, as i'm admittedly putting very limited time into this & have looked for examples that indicate there's substantial risk (i dont think alcohol is a good point of comparison btw; it may be legal but its also one of the 3 or so most harmful consumed substances around..).

my guess (again based on extremely limited research, & mostly your word) is that most of what you mention actually would be entirely suitable for those with addictive personalities (or whatever term you want to use). but i would exclude the two i'm harping on. modafinil, according to a company study, can induce euphoria & plays similarly with the reward mechanism that puts ritalin eg at such high risk for abuse.

my point about widespread usage isn't that one is objectively better or worse than the other, its just a simple factual difference. i don't for a second deny there's a gross amount of corruption in the industry, which is why i used the word "pushed".

all ive ever read about phenibut suggests it is (or easily can be) used recreationally, is addictive, & causes impairment. many of its advocates want a lid put on discussion of it bc they fear itll be classed as an illegal drug. modafinil is already a controlled substance. i FULLY believe these drugs can & do improve the quality of life for many who can or could use them. but for either i'd very much hesitate to -advocate- then, which is what i see so many 'nootropics' converts doing.

given the strong reservations you posted about phenibut & modafinil, this doesn't strictly apply to you -- again, this isn't about 99% of what youre saying & zilch about what youre doing; the 1% i do take issue with is this idea that because modafinil & phenibut aren't mainstream, they're somehow safer, or significantly safer, than mainstream alternatives. as i said, neither fits your own definition of a nootropic, even if they've been embraced by that community...it's a very small part of your otherwise informative & useful posts but its a hugely important part of what youre saying.