Brainfish, a new concept of a chess engine

[Leto]

So, the commercial project is not related to SF or any other engine, but you can do the calculations with SF or any other engine?? Are not those 2 statements the same? You are not using an engine while you are using an engine?

So, the Cerebellum library is a SF-calculated library after all?

So, please kindly explain where is the difference between SF and Brainfish, as well as between SF-calculated library and Cerebellum library.

Maybe you would like to release only a GUI after all? It might have its merits, I have not investigated that matter.

Sorry, maybe my english was not the best at this point or I was not very clear, I explain again:

The Commercial Product will be:

1. The Gui with Cerebellum Library handling
2.) The Cerebellum Library itself, which does not mean an already calculated book, but a tool (Cerebellum) to make such a book using an engine of your choice.
3.) An adapter to connect a Cerebellum calculated book with an engine for playing.
4.) The book created with the Cerebellum Library using Stockfish as engine as an additional benefit.

So perhaps the misunderstanding was that the Cerebellum Library is not an already calculated book, it's the tool to create and use such a book. It's in fact a software library to do that.

I hope now it is more clear.

Thomas

Do you have an estimate on the release date of this product, and the price? If you're looking for beta testers I would be interested, I have a 12 core Xeon with Windows 7.

[Ozymandias]

Concerning the quality of the book built, I hope it has its merits, additional time spent on calculating lines always helps, but it would be interesting to match SF with your library with SF with a book of the same size/depth, based on GM games, for example. If Brainfish is using library with 50 plies depth, then standard SF shall also use a book with 50-plies depth.

And you know what, I bet that there will be no elo increase over standard SF. For the simple reason, that GM lines still vastly outperform SF-built lines. Please try that, and then after reporting the result, decide how to publicise your project.

Already done, googling a result shared by Stefan Pohl, I found in the subsequent page, this one:

Code: Select all

Now ASM receives TopGM_8move.pgn....what a difference just an 8 move book makes !!
-16 Elo for Brainfish

# PLAYER              :  RATING  ERROR  PLAYED   (%)  D(%)
   1 SF 160722ASMPD      :    3208      7    1000  52.3  61.0
   2 Brainfish 160724    :    3192      7    1000  47.7  61.0

Was Brainfish using the TopGM_8move.pgn book as well or was it playing without TopGM_8move.pgn? I would imagine Brainfish would perform better without the TopGM_8move.pgn.

I'm speculating, but if the test was done in a normal manner, I'd say he used the book for both engines and let them on their own, from move 9 forward.

If you don't force BF to play the 8 moves, it might deviate and get the other engine out of book before move 8. That would've been unfair, both from an engine test as well as from a book test standpoint. Ideally, he should've used a top book for AF and let BF to play with its own book, but I guess he was more interested in engine testing. I know it's quite pointless, because BF is just SF once out of book, but go tell him that.

[Thomas Zipproth]

Do you have an estimate on the release date of this product, and the price? If you're looking for beta testers I would be interested, I have a 12 core Xeon with Windows 7.

Thanks for the offer, that should be possible, I will inform you before release. I estimate the release date not before late November, time needed to make everything user friendly and because we are not working full time on that project It will not be very epensive, I think below or around 30$.

Thomas

[Sven]

How we must modify my.res I ask?

Use a hex editor?

No! The programer have to do answer how he do modify himself! Then user can do same way. That is the open source. Same origin same right.

I think you are making a valid point. The problem seems to be that "my.res" is currently needed to build the BrainFish executable; this follows from the line

Code: Select all

LDFLAGS += my.res

in the Makefile, meaning that "my.res" has a format like a link library. So if the whole BrainFish is under GPL and "my.res" is included in the package then one would expect "my.res" under GPL as well. But I expect that this is not intended, so maybe Thomas wants to exclude "my.res" from the GPL'ed part. To me it seems that a user who downloads BrainFish and modifies some of the sources (which are basically SF sources with few additional code related to the special book) will not be able (without the commercial product) to create a modified version of "my.res" that way, so "my.res" seems to be just an add-on.

[Rochester]

Thank you indeed! They must follow the law of GPL when change the Stockfish into the Brainfish. Not add the binary blob and after that only they can modify themselves. They say use hex editor but nobody can do that. That is wronged for GPL. GPL say give user the format good for modifications also.

Different from GIF picture and phylosophy! The user can modify the GIF with the drawer but he cannot modify the my.res in the same way.

Maybe only to make the commercial money? Remember the thieves and the merchants have the same God.

[Thomas Zipproth]

How we must modify my.res I ask?

Use a hex editor?

No! The programer have to do answer how he do modify himself! Then user can do same way. That is the open source. Same origin same right.

I'm tired to explain that I cannot modify the binary resource myself, it is created in one part like a raytracer creates an image, and contains only binary numbers.

But it is not necessary to discuss this matter further, as the next version will not have the book included, because after some feedback this seems to be a better solution.

So the next version will load the book from an external file which is not GPL licensed, and everyone should be happy.

The download of Brainfish ist stopped until this Version arrives around Friday.

Thomas

[IWB]

...
So the next version will load the book from an external file which is not GPL licensed, and everyone should be happy.
...

Interesting that you name it "book" by yourself. So you invented a new book format and the access code is integrated into SF.

I am not an expert for the GPL of an external SF book you might sell but will the book access code in your Stockfish be GPL so other can implement this in their engine? (Usefull or not)

Best
Ingo

[Dann Corbit]

...
So the next version will load the book from an external file which is not GPL licensed, and everyone should be happy.
...

Interesting that you name it "book" by yourself. So you invented a new book format and the access code is integrated into SF.

I am not an expert for the GPL of an external SF book you might sell but will the book access code in your Stockfish be GPL so other can implement this in their engine? (Usefull or not)

Best
Ingo

I think the thing they are selling is not a book or an engine but a special book builder where you supply the data and/or engine to create the data and the data gets formed into a special book.

So it is the book building tool, if I am not mistaken.

[IWB]

I think the thing they are selling is not a book or an engine but a special book builder where you supply the data and/or engine to create the data and the data gets formed into a special book.

So it is the book building tool, if I am not mistaken.

Yea, it boils down to a new book format.
But again, if it is implemented in SF the access code has to be published according to GPL and somehow they have to give access to their own book or it is useless.

Ingo

[hgm]

Well, the GPL doesnot require the code to be useful.

It does require building tools to be available. E.g. you cannot dodge the GPL by writing your own compiler for your own programming language, and then write code additions to a GPL project in that language, and publish that source (charging people that want to use it for a compiler that has no other use to them). 'Available' here is a somewhat vague notion; it does not mean that is should be available for free. E.g. if building requires MS Word (as building of the WinBoard help file does) it would still be OK, because MS Word is in common use for other purposes.

The proposed project could be a bit questionable in this light. A parallel was drawn with ray-tracing code for producing gif images. But there are many programs in common use to produce gif images. In this case the only software able to produce the binary book file seems to be the software that the OP wants to market. This could be considered a GPL violation. To be safe some open-source program to create a book (e.g. by converting a PGN file) in that format could be supplied. That this would not help you to make a strong book is not relevant.

Of course using an existing book format, such as Polyglot format, would circumvent all problems.