To MODERATORS: Please STOP moving genuine tournaments!

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bob
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Re: To MODERATORS: Please CONTINUE moving tournaments!

Post by bob » Fri May 27, 2016 1:07 am

Dann Corbit wrote:
bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote: WCCC/WMCCC is a European championship.
When did komodo become a European engine?
Sounds like someone who would like an important sounding sticker on his box.

There is an exception to every rule. A cameo by Komodo fits that bill.

Here are the most recent entrants:

Code: Select all

1	Jonny	flag DEU	2,400 cores, 2,376 threads, AMD x86-64, 2.8 GHz	7.0	8	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Komodo	flag USA	24 cores, 24 threads, Intel i7	6.5	8	Second Place
3	Hiarcs	flag GBR	28 threads, Intel Xeon E5-2697, 2.8 GHz	5.0	8	Third Place
4	Protector	flag DEU	8 cores, 15 threads, Intel i7 5690x, 4 GHz	5.0	8	
5	Shredder	flag DEU	16 cores, 16 threads, Intel i7	4.5	8	
6	Ginkgo	flag DEU	6 cores, 6 threads, Intel i5	4.0	8	
7	The Baron	flag NLD	16 cores, 16 threads, Intel E5-2687w, 3.1 GHz	3.0	8	
8	Maverick	flag USA	1 thread, Intel i7, 2.8 GHz	1.0	8	
9	Fridolin	flag DEU	4 cores, 7 threads, Intel i7	0.0	8	
1	Junior	flag ISR	Dual 12 core Intel Xenon I5 2.7 GHz	7.5	10	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Jonny	flag DEU	2400 core AMD 2.8 GHz	7.0	10	Second Place
3	Pandix	flag HUN	I7-3740, 2.7 GHz, 16 GB RAM	5.5	10	Third Place
3	Hiarcs	flag GBR	16 core Intel Xenon E5 3.1 GHz	5.5	10	Third Place
5	Shredder	flag DEU	16 core Intel 3.1 GHz	4.5	10	
6	Merlin (hu)	flag HUN	I7-3740, 2.7 GHz, 16 GB RAM	0.0	10	
1	Junior	flag ISR	16 core i7 Sandybridge	6.0	8	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Shredder	flag DEU		5.5	8	Second Place
2	Hiarcs	flag GBR	12 core i7 Nehalem	5.5	8	Second Place
4	Pandix	flag HUN		5.0	8	
4	Jonny	flag DEU	800 core cluster	5.0	8	
6	The Baron	flag NLD	8 core i7 Nehalem	4.5	8	
7	Booot	flag UKR		3.0	8	
8	Rookie 3.4	flag NLD		1.5	8	
9	Woodpusher 1997	flag GBR		0.0	8	
1	Rybka	flag USA	Intel Cluster run by Lukas Cimiotti	8.0	9	Disqualified
2	Rondo	flag USA		6.5	9	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Thinker	flag USA		6.5	9	World Computer Chess Champion
4	Shredder	flag DEU		6.0	9	Third Place
5	Jonny	flag DEU	Cluster	5.5	9	
6	Pandix Breakthrough	flag HUN	loan hardware	5.0	9	
7	Deep Junior	flag ISR		4.0	9	
8	Darmenios	flag POL		2.0	9	
9	Fridolin	flag DEU		1.0	9	
10	Hector for Chess	flag HUN		0.5	9	
Boiled down to individual engines:
Woodpusher
Thinker
The
Shredder
Rybka
Rookie
Rondo
Protector
Pandix
Merlin
Maverick
Komodo
Junior
Jonny
Hiarcs
Hector
Ginkgo
Fridolin
Darmenios
Booot

Considering the CCRL 40/40 measurements, these are the top 20 engines:
Texel
Strelka
Stockfish
Rybka
Protector
NirvanaChess
Naum
Komodo
Houdini
Hannibal
Gull
Fritz
Fizbo
Fire
Equinox
Critter
Chiron
Bouquet
BlackMamba
Andscacs
Alfil

And what is missing from the ICGA list?
Answer: Most of the programs from the second list.
And why don't they participate?
Because the contest is meaningless unless you want a fancy, false sticker on your box.
You should stop with the insulting crap. Do you realize how many clones are on your "preferred list"?

Strelka, Houdini and fire stand out. There are probably others. This is why WE (the ICGA membership / participants) choose who gets to enter.

If you don't like the ICGA, nobody has forced you to join. But you sound like a bitter complainer and nothing else with these kinds of posts. Particularly when you are clueless about which are original and which are not.
What have I said that is insulting?

Houdini and Fire are well accepted by the community at large.

But if we remove those three strong engines, my points all stand, completely unaltered.

A FIDE chess championship without :

Code: Select all

Rank	Name	Title	Country	Rating	Games	B-Year
 1	 Carlsen, Magnus	 g	 NOR	 2851	 0	 1990
 2	 Caruana, Fabiano	 g	 USA	 2804	 11	 1992
 3	 Kramnik, Vladimir	 g	 RUS	 2801	 0	 1975
 4	 Giri, Anish	 g	 NED	 2790	 0	 1994
 5	 Vachier-Lagrave, Maxime	 g	 FRA	 2788	 0	 1990
 6	 Nakamura, Hikaru	 g	 USA	 2787	 11	 1987
 7	 Aronian, Levon	 g	 ARM	 2784	 0	 1982
 8	 Karjakin, Sergey	 g	 RUS	 2779	 0	 1990
 9	 Ding, Liren	 g	 CHN	 2778	 4	 1992
 10	 So, Wesley	 g	 USA	 2775	 11	 1993
 11	 Anand, Viswanathan	 g	 IND	 2770	 0	 1969
 12	 Eljanov, Pavel	 g	 UKR	 2765	 0	 1983
 13	 Harikrishna, P.	 g	 IND	 2763	 0	 1986
 14	 Svidler, Peter	 g	 RUS	 2762	 0	 1976
 15	 Li, Chao b	 g	 CHN	 2756	 4	 1989
 16	 Topalov, Veselin	 g	 BUL	 2754	 0	 1975
 17	 Grischuk, Alexander	 g	 RUS	 2752	 0	 1983
 18	 Mamedyarov, Shakhriyar	 g	 AZE	 2748	 4	 1985
 19	 Gelfand, Boris	 g	 ISR	 2740	 0	 1968
 20	 Yu, Yangyi	 g	 CHN	 2737	 3	 1994
would hardly be a championship.
First, this:
Sounds like someone who would like an important sounding sticker on his box.
You don't think that is insulting? It is a direct insult.

Second, houdini, et. al. are NOT "accepted by the community". They are accepted by a small group, including yourself, but they are non-original.

Your human world championship is pure nonsense since we don't clone humans.

You DO realize that houdini and fire have NEVER applied to attend the WCCC? How would you make them? They have not applied to enter anything. They just get picked up and entered by those that don't object to clones/derivatives.

Follow the events you like. Stop denigrating one that has a rule you don't like. It is not going to change anything unless the WCCC participants decide to change the rules. So far, that has not even been discussed, much less actually happened.

BTW I seem to remember a FIDE WC event without Kasparov. You remember that I assume? It happens.

Finally that "false" sticker is not false. This is, and has been the official world championship tournament since 1974. 42 years and counting. Claiming to have won that event is _NOT_ "false".

There are so many things wrong with your post, and yet you tell ME "you are a criminal and belong in jail"???

I don't think you even grasp the topic at all.

Dann Corbit
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Re: To MODERATORS: Please CONTINUE moving tournaments!

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri May 27, 2016 1:47 am

bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
bob wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote: WCCC/WMCCC is a European championship.
When did komodo become a European engine?
Sounds like someone who would like an important sounding sticker on his box.

There is an exception to every rule. A cameo by Komodo fits that bill.

Here are the most recent entrants:

Code: Select all

1	Jonny	flag DEU	2,400 cores, 2,376 threads, AMD x86-64, 2.8 GHz	7.0	8	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Komodo	flag USA	24 cores, 24 threads, Intel i7	6.5	8	Second Place
3	Hiarcs	flag GBR	28 threads, Intel Xeon E5-2697, 2.8 GHz	5.0	8	Third Place
4	Protector	flag DEU	8 cores, 15 threads, Intel i7 5690x, 4 GHz	5.0	8	
5	Shredder	flag DEU	16 cores, 16 threads, Intel i7	4.5	8	
6	Ginkgo	flag DEU	6 cores, 6 threads, Intel i5	4.0	8	
7	The Baron	flag NLD	16 cores, 16 threads, Intel E5-2687w, 3.1 GHz	3.0	8	
8	Maverick	flag USA	1 thread, Intel i7, 2.8 GHz	1.0	8	
9	Fridolin	flag DEU	4 cores, 7 threads, Intel i7	0.0	8	
1	Junior	flag ISR	Dual 12 core Intel Xenon I5 2.7 GHz	7.5	10	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Jonny	flag DEU	2400 core AMD 2.8 GHz	7.0	10	Second Place
3	Pandix	flag HUN	I7-3740, 2.7 GHz, 16 GB RAM	5.5	10	Third Place
3	Hiarcs	flag GBR	16 core Intel Xenon E5 3.1 GHz	5.5	10	Third Place
5	Shredder	flag DEU	16 core Intel 3.1 GHz	4.5	10	
6	Merlin (hu)	flag HUN	I7-3740, 2.7 GHz, 16 GB RAM	0.0	10	
1	Junior	flag ISR	16 core i7 Sandybridge	6.0	8	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Shredder	flag DEU		5.5	8	Second Place
2	Hiarcs	flag GBR	12 core i7 Nehalem	5.5	8	Second Place
4	Pandix	flag HUN		5.0	8	
4	Jonny	flag DEU	800 core cluster	5.0	8	
6	The Baron	flag NLD	8 core i7 Nehalem	4.5	8	
7	Booot	flag UKR		3.0	8	
8	Rookie 3.4	flag NLD		1.5	8	
9	Woodpusher 1997	flag GBR		0.0	8	
1	Rybka	flag USA	Intel Cluster run by Lukas Cimiotti	8.0	9	Disqualified
2	Rondo	flag USA		6.5	9	World Computer Chess Champion
2	Thinker	flag USA		6.5	9	World Computer Chess Champion
4	Shredder	flag DEU		6.0	9	Third Place
5	Jonny	flag DEU	Cluster	5.5	9	
6	Pandix Breakthrough	flag HUN	loan hardware	5.0	9	
7	Deep Junior	flag ISR		4.0	9	
8	Darmenios	flag POL		2.0	9	
9	Fridolin	flag DEU		1.0	9	
10	Hector for Chess	flag HUN		0.5	9	
Boiled down to individual engines:
Woodpusher
Thinker
The
Shredder
Rybka
Rookie
Rondo
Protector
Pandix
Merlin
Maverick
Komodo
Junior
Jonny
Hiarcs
Hector
Ginkgo
Fridolin
Darmenios
Booot

Considering the CCRL 40/40 measurements, these are the top 20 engines:
Texel
Strelka
Stockfish
Rybka
Protector
NirvanaChess
Naum
Komodo
Houdini
Hannibal
Gull
Fritz
Fizbo
Fire
Equinox
Critter
Chiron
Bouquet
BlackMamba
Andscacs
Alfil

And what is missing from the ICGA list?
Answer: Most of the programs from the second list.
And why don't they participate?
Because the contest is meaningless unless you want a fancy, false sticker on your box.
You should stop with the insulting crap. Do you realize how many clones are on your "preferred list"?

Strelka, Houdini and fire stand out. There are probably others. This is why WE (the ICGA membership / participants) choose who gets to enter.

If you don't like the ICGA, nobody has forced you to join. But you sound like a bitter complainer and nothing else with these kinds of posts. Particularly when you are clueless about which are original and which are not.
What have I said that is insulting?

Houdini and Fire are well accepted by the community at large.

But if we remove those three strong engines, my points all stand, completely unaltered.

A FIDE chess championship without :

Code: Select all

Rank	Name	Title	Country	Rating	Games	B-Year
 1	 Carlsen, Magnus	 g	 NOR	 2851	 0	 1990
 2	 Caruana, Fabiano	 g	 USA	 2804	 11	 1992
 3	 Kramnik, Vladimir	 g	 RUS	 2801	 0	 1975
 4	 Giri, Anish	 g	 NED	 2790	 0	 1994
 5	 Vachier-Lagrave, Maxime	 g	 FRA	 2788	 0	 1990
 6	 Nakamura, Hikaru	 g	 USA	 2787	 11	 1987
 7	 Aronian, Levon	 g	 ARM	 2784	 0	 1982
 8	 Karjakin, Sergey	 g	 RUS	 2779	 0	 1990
 9	 Ding, Liren	 g	 CHN	 2778	 4	 1992
 10	 So, Wesley	 g	 USA	 2775	 11	 1993
 11	 Anand, Viswanathan	 g	 IND	 2770	 0	 1969
 12	 Eljanov, Pavel	 g	 UKR	 2765	 0	 1983
 13	 Harikrishna, P.	 g	 IND	 2763	 0	 1986
 14	 Svidler, Peter	 g	 RUS	 2762	 0	 1976
 15	 Li, Chao b	 g	 CHN	 2756	 4	 1989
 16	 Topalov, Veselin	 g	 BUL	 2754	 0	 1975
 17	 Grischuk, Alexander	 g	 RUS	 2752	 0	 1983
 18	 Mamedyarov, Shakhriyar	 g	 AZE	 2748	 4	 1985
 19	 Gelfand, Boris	 g	 ISR	 2740	 0	 1968
 20	 Yu, Yangyi	 g	 CHN	 2737	 3	 1994
would hardly be a championship.
First, this:
Sounds like someone who would like an important sounding sticker on his box.
You don't think that is insulting? It is a direct insult.
(Ecclesiastes 7:9) Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones.

Everyone who knows anything about chess knows that the recent ICGA "championships" carry less weight than Joe's garage tournament.

Second, houdini, et. al. are NOT "accepted by the community". They are accepted by a small group, including yourself, but they are non-original.
They are accepted by all sensible persons.
Your human world championship is pure nonsense since we don't clone humans.
Non-sequitor
You DO realize that houdini and fire have NEVER applied to attend the WCCC? How would you make them? They have not applied to enter anything. They just get picked up and entered by those that don't object to clones/derivatives.
They do play in the real championship, TCEC.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1965 ... andmasters
http://www.i-programmer.info/news/105-a ... again.html
http://blog.chabris.com/2015/01/martin- ... chess.html
Everyone seems to realize this.
Follow the events you like. Stop denigrating one that has a rule you don't like. It is not going to change anything unless the WCCC participants decide to change the rules. So far, that has not even been discussed, much less actually happened.
What is the rule that I don't like?
BTW I seem to remember a FIDE WC event without Kasparov. You remember that I assume? It happens.
Sure, take out one person for political reasons. But, say 17 of the top 20 and it seems to lose even more logic. In the championship won by Alexander Khalifman, at least most of the top players participated.
Finally that "false" sticker is not false. This is, and has been the official world championship tournament since 1974. 42 years and counting. Claiming to have won that event is _NOT_ "false".
Claiming to be a championship when the best do not participate is nothing less than a lie. You seem to be comfortable with it, though.
There are so many things wrong with your post, and yet you tell ME "you are a criminal and belong in jail"???
Your actions towards Vas were orders of magnitude more criminal than anything he has ever done.
I don't think you even grasp the topic at all.
One of us is confused
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

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hgm
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Re: To MODERATORS: Please CONTINUE moving tournaments!

Post by hgm » Fri May 27, 2016 5:55 am

Well, at least that explains your attitude in this issue. Apparently your second agenda is waging a vendetta against ICGA, so you applaud anything you believe might be helpful in that, no matter how much it hurts others.

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Graham Banks
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by Graham Banks » Fri May 27, 2016 6:06 am

hgm wrote:The people that actually do organize these events have just told us here it does hurt their events.

Are you calling them liars?
Graham Banks wrote: stickying such threads in the Tournaments subforum is probably the correct thing to do.
The affected people (organizers and participants) have all told here this does not satisfy their needs, and will cause them a lot of hardship.

So you consider inflicting hardship on people "the correct thing to do"? Why? I never took you for a sadistic person... Why is it a correct thing to do to make other people suffer?
I doubt that it will cause any hardship at all. Let's wait and see how the field compares with last year.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

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hgm
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by hgm » Fri May 27, 2016 7:07 am

So in fact you do call the people that say they suffer from it liars...

Who the hell do you think you are that you are entitled to deciding what others will suffer from, and what not? Do you also so that in every-day life?

"Please sir, you are stepping on my toes, and it hurts".

Typical person: "O, I am so sorry, I won't do it again" <gets off quickly>.
Graham: "Well I don't think that hurts much. It would be a good thing if others stepped on your toes more often too!" <keeps his foot firmly in place>

:shock:

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Graham Banks
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by Graham Banks » Fri May 27, 2016 7:21 am

hgm wrote:So in fact you do call the people that say they suffer from it liars...

Who the hell do you think you are that you are entitled to deciding what others will suffer from, and what not? Do you also so that in every-day life?

"Please sir, you are stepping on my toes, and it hurts".

Typical person: "O, I am so sorry, I won't do it again" <gets off quickly>.
Graham: "Well I don't think that hurts much. It would be a good thing if others stepped on your toes more often too!" <keeps his foot firmly in place>

:shock:
You are over-reacting again.

The event hasn't even happened yet, so how can anybody know the effect that having a stickied thread in the tournament subforum will have on numbers?

And taking that into account, how can I be accusing anybody of being liars when the event hasn't even happened yet?
If the field turns out to be the same or larger than last year, I wonder whether you'll apologise for being wrong and accusing me of all sorts of horrible things.

Anyway, your plan of keeping this thread prominent seems to be working. :wink:
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by BBauer » Fri May 27, 2016 7:50 am

IMHO this whole thread belongs to the T&M forum.
So why not move it to where it belongs?
Kind regards
Bernhard

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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by hgm » Fri May 27, 2016 9:31 am

Graham Banks wrote:You are over-reacting again.
Not at all, it is you who wants to play down the problem.
The event hasn't even happened yet, so how can anybody know the effect that having a stickied thread in the tournament subforum will have on numbers?
I know MY forum behavior, which is never to look in the T&M section. I know for certain I would have remained completely unaware of the ACCA event if I had not been so lucky as to see the announcement before it was moved (and if it was not for this thread). I know that when the General Topics and Programming sections would be kept scrupulously clean of such announcements I would never notice them with my current forum use. I know that to stand a chance to see them I would from now on change that behavior in a way that for me is an unacceptable burden, opening a sticky thread in a forum section I don't want to visit.

Is this too hard to understand for you?

Other prospective participants have stated exactly the same; this is not just my problem. The only persons that defend this moderator vandalism are persons that are not affected by it, or have an interest in destroying participation events.

In other words, the moderators are standing on my toes.
And taking that into account, how can I be accusing anybody of being liars when the event hasn't even happened yet?
If the field turns out to be the same or larger than last year, I wonder whether you'll apologise for being wrong and accusing me of all sorts of horrible things.
Certainly not. Because it would just mean that those participants must have done the extra unnecessary work of digging through the a forum section they have no interest in, on a daily basis. So the damage would still be done.

"You are standing on my toes, and it hurts!"

Graham: "Well, never mind. You cannot know if it will still hurt tomorrow. Just wait" <doesn't budge>

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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri May 27, 2016 10:11 am

H.G. Muller cannot be bothered to look at the other forum.
It is a burden of unimaginable horror.
Suffering is your middle name.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by hgm » Fri May 27, 2016 10:48 am

Dann Corbit wrote:H.G. Muller cannot be bothered to look at the other forum.
It is a burden of unimaginable horror.
Suffering is your middle name.
Can you explain here why you think I should take any abuse, no matter how small?

And can you explain what exactly your interest is in this? How exactly do you suffer when ACCA, CCT, Leiden, WCCC and Carugate are announced in the General Topics session? Or how do the moderators suffer by not having to move the announcement of those 5 once-a-year events, but just trust the organizer to know which readers he wants to address?

Would you also be so liberal when you buy a bottle of cola in the super market, and when you unpack your groceries it turns out that at the checkout counter they swapped it for a bottle of buttermilk, because they thought that would be more healthy for you? Your a big boy, right, you can drink buttermilk, so why would you complain?

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