To MODERATORS: Please STOP moving genuine tournaments!

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bob
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by bob » Sat May 28, 2016 3:02 am

Adam Hair wrote:
bob wrote:
Adam Hair wrote:
CRoberson wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
...

I doubt that it will cause any hardship at all. Let's wait and see how the field compares with last year.
Component oriented thinking isn't going to work here. The post is a "call for participants" and it was moved last year and I think it was moved in
2014 which was our record lowest participation. Last year, I put some extra effort in hunting new email addresses and some of them participated.
Thanks to this mess, I'll likely put a day or two of extra work into it again. So, an increase in the participation levels will not prove anything about the sticky.
The announcement remained in the General forum in 2014.
Then doesn't that beg the question, "why has this changed in 2016?" No vote was held by the membership to change anything...
There is no mechanism for the members to directly change anything about CCC other than our moderators. Instead, we vote for a 3 member panel of moderators to act in the best interest of the forum. CCC is the preeminent forum for computer chess and the moderators should always keep that in mind, but they are put in charge of the forum, not computer chess. If the moderators think they can improve the function of the forum without irreparably damaging this hobby, then they should do it.

Let me state that no one has shown that moving the announcements to the T&M subforum and making them sticky upon request has hurt the author participation tournaments. If that can be shown, then an immediate remedy will be needed. But so far there has just been bellowing from people who do not want to make a simple change in their forum viewing habits.
This is a slight mischaracterization. Yes, we vote for moderators. But we don't simultaneously vote for "change anything you don't like". I've been a moderator here more than anyone, and when we originally formed CCC (10 of us) one of the things we wanted was light-handed moderation. Quick action on personal attacks, but minimal action elsewhere. Later we modified CCC to include multiple fora for reasons already explained. Tournaments has been just fine as it has been used for EXACTLY what we intended when we created it, namely to collect all of the individual ongoing tournaments, their results, their games and such in one place where those that are interested can find them (even if they do have to look a lot as that is a HIGH volume forum due to all the testing and such that goes on along with reporting on same.

Announcements where one asks for participation, such as WCCC, ACCA, even CEGT, perfectly fits in the general forum. Even announcing of the results since everyone pays attention to all of those belongs there. Round by round and game by game analysis still belongs in the tournaments fora.

And this is how it has been run for a LONG time. Until recently. Yet I have seen NO discussion about any reasons to change the policy and place ANYTHING that includes the word tournament or match in the tournaments forum.

Past moderation philosophy has been to politely suggest that the discussion move to the correct forum if it appears to be in the wrong one. But actually moving things should be EXTREMELY rare. For the longest this only happened when the original poster would ask us to move a post to a more correct place. We created the tournament forum because there were many complaints about round-by-round and game-by-game reporting causing new posts to fall off the bottom of the first page, which tended to cause them to become lost when very few want to actually scroll through all the ongoing tournaments, matches and rating list testing that is going on.

The complaint here is simple. ACCA, CCT, WCCC, etc are all well-known events, well-respected events, and have all been going on for many years. CCT, in fact, started RIGHT HERE. When an announcement is moved to the tournament forum, it quickly scrolls off the page and nobody notices. This tends to hide the announcement, and harms participation and spectating.

An announcement clearly is "of general interest" to all computer chess enthusiasts. And, as such, it belongs in the general forum where such announcements have been done for years.

So just because we vote for moderators (and the team concept seems to not be working since the last election did not even happen) does NOT mean we vote to just change things willy-nilly. That is certainly not the intent of any vote I have cast in the past. And that is, IMHO, a gross mischaracterization of what others voted for as well. Moving the post was simply a mistake that can easily be corrected, at the very least by NOT repeating this again. The length of this thread suggests it is problematic. Ideally, one changes things for a reason, not just random choices here and there.

My $.02 of course. But since the tournament forum was _MY_ idea anyway, I do have a pretty good idea of what the intent was. And it was SPECIFICALLY to move all the CCRL, etc type high-volume reports somewhere where the main forum doesn't scroll wildly every hour or two.

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mclane
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by mclane » Sat May 28, 2016 5:12 am

Exactly bob. Well summarized.
Maybe the moderators should resign if they still want to continue there own "moving methods".

As i Said earlier:
Beeing a Moderator is a job to work for the community.
It's to sacrifice own work for the computerchess people.
Not to be right about rules or laws or produce anger.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

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Rebel
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by Rebel » Sat May 28, 2016 5:57 am

Question for the motherators: suppose Komodo team manages to agree on a 6-game match against Magnus Carlsen in the style of the 2 historic Deep Blue - Kasparov matches. According to your (new) policy you are forced to move the big news and all its enthusiastic responses to T&M.

Would you?

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hgm
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by hgm » Sat May 28, 2016 7:41 am

Graham Banks wrote:Perhaps the mods could consider putting an announcement or sticky thread in this forum, indicating that all tournament announcements can now be found in the tournaments subforum?
So because the occasional once-a-year announcement is an unbearable distraction in the General Topics section (to the moderators apparently; I don't think anyone actually complaint about this), we now should have a sticky thread there that is always present? What problem is this supposed to solve?

The residents of my apartment building complain that I turned most of their parking lot into a garden, because they now have to walk 500 meters to get to their car. So I will replace one of the few remaining spaces by a big billboard, with the text "parking 500m --->". Problem solved?

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hgm
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by hgm » Sat May 28, 2016 7:55 am

mclane wrote:Exactly bob. Well summarized.
Maybe the moderators should resign if they still want to continue there own "moving methods".

As i Said earlier:
Beeing a Moderator is a job to work for the community.
It's to sacrifice own work for the computerchess people.
Not to be right about rules or laws or produce anger.
Indeed, if the moderators cannot refrain from abusing their powers to vandalize the forum, they should step down. The task of moderators is to guard people's rights to make computer-chess-related topics public without being harassed. Not to harass people themselves.

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Graham Banks
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by Graham Banks » Sat May 28, 2016 8:19 am

hgm wrote:Indeed, if the moderators cannot refrain from abusing their powers to vandalize the forum, they should step down. The task of moderators is to guard people's rights to make computer-chess-related topics public without being harassed. Not to harass people themselves.
Another gross over-reaction.

Amazing how much trouble the same small group of members can try to make when they don't like something. Not the first time and won't be the last.

These mods have done a superb job. Think I'll start a poll to show them how much support they have.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

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Graham Banks
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Poll for members regarding this issue

Post by Graham Banks » Sat May 28, 2016 8:24 am

Poll for members regarding this issue:

http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60297
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

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Rebel
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by Rebel » Sat May 28, 2016 9:28 am

Graham Banks wrote: Amazing how much trouble the same small group of members can try to make when they don't like something. Not the first time and won't be the last.
And that small group has names?

And perhaps you have missed the fact that the programmers (who responded) so far have spoken against the new policy. You know, those guys responsible for your daily medicine :wink: Their minds may work a bit different than yours.

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Guenther
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Re: To MODERATORS: Please STOP moving genuine tournaments!

Post by Guenther » Sat May 28, 2016 9:29 am

Jesse Gersenson wrote:
Computer Chess Club: Tournaments and Matches
Discussion of computer chess matches and engine tournaments.
Seems the perfect place for discussion of tournaments.
Just for the record that description text appeared after the 'new' T&M forum was created not vice versa, which means it says nothing, it is only a tautology.
No one was asked how the text has to be formulated and no one was interested in it either in 2006, because real live and genuine CC tournaments still appeared in the general forum.

I did some research (a pity that we lost all posts between 2006 and early 2007 - I still remember that loss) and it is clear that until 2013 all genuine
tournaments appeared in the general forum.

Then suddenly a shift towards the home tournaments forum (it really was meant to be like that!) started, but even in mid 2015 it was still a lottery in which forum the posts about them appeared(or had to be moved).

Only after mid 2015 the shift towards the T&M forum was completed! This means the last moderation team(s?) silently did make a change which was not demanded, but followed a description which never was decided fully about.

The description text should simply be changed to what we wanted it to be at that time and then we can move on...

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mclane
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Re: Statement from the Moderation Team

Post by mclane » Sat May 28, 2016 10:46 am

Rebel wrote:
Graham Banks wrote: Amazing how much trouble the same small group of members can try to make when they don't like something. Not the first time and won't be the last.
And that small group has names?

And perhaps you have missed the fact that the programmers (who responded) so far have spoken against the new policy. You know, those guys responsible for your daily medicine :wink: Their minds may work a bit different than yours.
Maybe the admin Sam hull can give us data about the different traffic
In the 2 forums.

How many hits per day/week
And how many users watching groups per day/ week.

Would be interesting to see data,
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

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